Beatle-mania

[Gimlet]

I see it this way, You listen to the Beatles when you’re a kid, then you grow up and listen to Dylan.

I grew up thinking Dylan was an utter phoney. Until I heard Joan Baez sing his songs. Then I realised what an important song writer he was. Stripped of Dylan's stylisation and performed as pure music, you see the structure underneath, and it's perfect. There's a reason so many artists have covered Dylan songs in wildly different styles, and they all stand up. Now I'm a huge fan (of Baez and Dylan). Saying that, Baez performed and recorded some blinding versions of Beatles songs. Let it be stands out.

When Dylan sold the rights to his work he achieved over three time the price that McCartney got for his. I think that's a fair reflection. Paul Simon made more than five times McCartney's price. Again, about right.

 

[Gimlet]

When you realize they didn't "read music" and weren't particularly "trained" for the endeavor, it becomes even more amazing. It was serendipity when they got together.

Actually, they did. Lennon and McCartney, raised in a staunch Catholic community, both sang in church choirs when they were boys. Lennon was talented. McCartney failed his choir audition multiple times because he wasn't thought to have the voice for it, but he persisted nevertheless, even though he wasn't as keen a musical scholar as Lennon. Both would seem to have learned something about music from being choristers and it influenced their later song writing. As it did Elvis and any number of gospel inspired artists. You can certainly hear the influence in many Beatles songs and their style of harmonising, several of which make use of the Dorian mode from medieval plainsong, most notably Elenor Rigby. The Beatles were possibly the first big name band to take Dorian mode mainstream and they almost certainly learned it from their time singing coral music, even if they may not have known it at the time.

They may not have had conventional classical training in music but they were certainly influenced by it through their upbringing.

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

When Dylan sold the rights to his work he achieved over three time the price that McCartney got for his. I think that's a fair reflection. Paul Simon made more than five times McCartney's price. Again, about right.

Incredibly misleading.

 

[Gimlet]

Incredibly misleading.

How so?

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

How so?

Come on, what rights and when are you claiming McCartney sold and for how much? You’re making the claim.

 

[jpberg]

So much horseshit.
It’s simple, think about pop music before the Beatles, then think about it after the Beatles.
I know the tired old arguments - it all would’ve happened anyway - but here we are.
They changed pop music on melodic and sociological levels.

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

Actually, they did. Lennon and McCartney, raised in a staunch Catholic community, both sang in church choirs when they were boys. Lennon was talented. McCartney failed his choir audition multiple times because he wasn't thought to have the voice for it, but he persisted nevertheless

McCartney's mother was Catholic but he didn't have much to do in any significant way at all with the Catholic Church growing up. He failed an audition for a very special church choir (Anglican) his father set up at age 11, not "his church" and not multiple times, and then sang in a choir in another church (Anglican) near Penny Lane which likely did influence him, as did many things. The story gets exaggerated often.

Lennon was Anglican, not Catholic. His connection with his church choir wasn't all that lasting, lol, but they get to talk about him having attended.

 

[Kobold]

So much horseshit.
It’s simple, think about pop music before the Beatles, then think about it after the Beatles.
I know the tired old arguments - it all would’ve happened anyway - but here we are.
They changed pop music on melodic and sociological levels.

I heard that same argument used about Nirvana too. Both the Beatles and Nirvana changed pop music, fashion and attitudes.

 

[Cloozoe]

You guys are nuts...oops; a moderator previously told me I can't say that.

You guys are perhaps slightly misguided from my exceedingly humble perspective.

It's not about quantifiable, anylytical, sociological. It's not about best musical chops.

It's, as the screenwriter has Jimmy Stewart playing Glenn Miller say, "the sound"

In 1964 nobody had ever heard anything that sounded like that because nothing else ever had sounded like that. And jillions of people with ears went "whoa! cool!"

Doesn't happen often and you can try to pick it apart or it may elude you, but there's a reason they're the bleeping Beatles!

 

[HRPufnstuf]

I don't "get" the Beatles or country music.

So what?

 

[Zero]

I heard that same argument used about Nirvana too. Both the Beatles and Nirvana changed pop music, fashion and attitudes.

But Mr.Rogers was sportin' a cardigan on a regular before it was cool

 

[doug535]

I'm not a huge fan of The Beatles, but I do enjoy a large portion of their music. It really is amazing how much they put out in a short time. Lots of good tunes in the movie Across The Universe, and very well put together. Very much enjoyed the way that conversations between people in the movie would lead into a tune, much like Moulin Rouge, which I could not get into the first time I tried to watch it. Must have been my mindset/mood because I caught it another time a couple years later and was well pleased with it.

 

[renfield]

Hard to think an AI treatment is going to be satisfying but whatever.

Plenty of stuff in their catalog to listen to. I still hear new things in their music every time I listen to it. An incredible blend of melody, harmony and sophistication that doesn’t get in the way of the music.

 

[Nevaditude]

I see it this way, You listen to the Beatles when you’re a kid, then you grow up and listen to Dylan.

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
- Apostle Paul- & last time I checked, I think Mr. Dylan agrees with the thought.

But I still do enjoy John, Paul, George, Ringo & Bob

 

[Sam Gamgee]

Actually, they did. Lennon and McCartney, raised in a staunch Catholic community, both sang in church choirs when they were boys. Lennon was talented. McCartney failed his choir audition multiple times because he wasn't thought to have the voice for it, but he persisted nevertheless, even though he wasn't as keen a musical scholar as Lennon. Both would seem to have learned something about music from being choristers and it influenced their later song writing. As it did Elvis and any number of gospel inspired artists. You can certainly hear the influence in many Beatles songs and their style of harmonising, several of which make use of the Dorian mode from medieval plainsong, most notably Elenor Rigby. The Beatles were possibly the first big name band to take Dorian mode mainstream and they almost certainly learned it from their time singing coral music, even if they may not have known it at the time.

They may not have had conventional classical training in music but they were certainly influenced by it through their upbringing.

Being raised in church and singing choir music isn’t even close to being the same thing as a trained musician. My point was/is, they couldn’t really “read music,” etc but came up with some of the most iconic chord structures and melodies of the modern era. It almost seems like you missed the point on purpose?

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

I'm not a huge fan of The Beatles, but I do enjoy a large portion of their music. It really is amazing how much they put out in a short time. Lots of good tunes in the movie Across The Universe, and very well put together. Very much enjoyed the way that conversations between people in the movie would lead into a tune, much like Moulin Rouge, which I could not get into the first time I tried to watch it. Must have been my mindset/mood because I caught it another time a couple years later and was well pleased with it.

Strangely, I didn’t think much of Elvis in my HS years - he was bloated and sweaty and wearing a lei and in a few years he was dead and then …… I discovered his early stuff - “Too Much” and “Little Sister” and “Love Me” have the deepest grooves in some LPs - led me to rockabilly and one of my favorite artists ever, Eddie Cochran. Following musical threads and going where they lead is a blast.

I got into country to the extent I did early on because of the names of the artists on the Firestone Christmas albums you got at the station - lots of country represented. Follow the names ….

 

[Merton]

Must've had something going on. I know who Lennon was, had to look up the Everlys.

Both Lennon and McCartney said they nicked their early harmonies from the Everlys. The post Beatle Macca song "Someone's knocking at the door" mentions Phil and Don.

 

[Chasing Embers]

Both Lennon and McCartney said they nicked their early harmonies from the Everlys. The post Beatle Macca song "Someone's knocking at the door" mentions Phil and Don.

No doubt that they did, I had just never heard of them. Other than Lennon though, I never really cared for post Beatles members solo efforts.

 

[Gimlet]

No doubt that they did, I had just never heard of them. Other than Lennon though, I never really cared for post Beatles members solo efforts.

Me neither. I struggle to think on a single McCartney solo song that would have got a recording contract if an unknown artist had come up with it.

Anyway.. That aside, I'm surprised a thread on a subject as trivial as pop music and pop music reputations has generated more heat than light. At the end of the day, music is subjective and purely a matter of personal taste. There are no right of wrong answers. I'm not interested in acrimonious I'm-right-you're-wrong exchanges, even when they're about something important. It becomes deeply tedious. I like discussion, not arguments so I won't be getting sucked into any here.

 

[Gimlet]

Strangely, I didn’t think much of Elvis in my HS years - he was bloated and sweaty and wearing a lei and in a few years he was dead and then …… I discovered his early stuff - “Too Much” and “Little Sister” and “Love Me” have the deepest grooves in some LPs - led me to rockabilly and one of my favorite artists ever, Eddie Cochran. Following musical threads and going where they lead is a blast.

I got into country to the extent I did early on because of the names of the artists on the Firestone Christmas albums you got at the station - lots of country represented. Follow the names ….

We didn't have a TV set in our house till I was about 13. My Dad (a classical musician and concert pianist, as it happens) didn't approve of them. So I never really got to see Elvis's decline. I only heard the music. There's a lot to be said for that.

Conversely, I knew far more about the life of the late Sinead O'Conner than I did about her music, because of TV. And the drama and politics of it all rather wore me down to the point where I have to admit, I avoided her music.
After her death, I was listening to a classical music station on the radio late one night and without introducing the singer, they played a classical arrangement of an Irish folk song. I'd no idea who was singing but it was an extraordinary performance and an object lesson in purity and less is more. I was almost shocked to hear at the end of it that is was Sinead O'Conner and they'd played it as a tribute.