I'm seeing some of the crazy aftermarket prices people will pay for 50g up to 8oz of tobacco and feel like I'm missing something here. I understand with McClelland that since no more will ever be made the price will intrinsically be higher. For Balkan Sobriane and Esoterica, is the supply even lesser than all the old McClelland out there?
Balkan Sobriane & Esoterica; What's the Deal?
- Thread starter sunnysmokes
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Esoterica only produces very limited quantities that typically sell out within minutes of being released by retailers. The price is being driven by low supply and high demand, mostly in China. Balkan Sobraine is also very hard to find so low supply drives high demand.
They area very small family run manufacturer, and release just what they get processed. So, supply is always small. They do this because it is their prerogative as a business.
However, soul sucking, dirt maggot flippers have created an atmosphere of fear of missing out, and it pushes up demand.
Really, unless you are a fan of aromatics, specifically licorice and treacle, you probably can find better products out there, outside of esoterica. Everything they make is cased in those. So, even their non-aros are aromatic-y.
Now, some will come on here and testify that they don't taste the casings... sure... fine... then maybe chose something that better fits your tastes, or lack of.
I would NOT, I repeat, I would not feed the flippers. They are NOT worth it. YMMV
However, soul sucking, dirt maggot flippers have created an atmosphere of fear of missing out, and it pushes up demand.
Really, unless you are a fan of aromatics, specifically licorice and treacle, you probably can find better products out there, outside of esoterica. Everything they make is cased in those. So, even their non-aros are aromatic-y.
Now, some will come on here and testify that they don't taste the casings... sure... fine... then maybe chose something that better fits your tastes, or lack of.
I would NOT, I repeat, I would not feed the flippers. They are NOT worth it. YMMV
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What would be some readily available blends you would recommend to a beginner that are comparable (however much so) to Balkan Sobriane & Esoterica?
The thread that never dies.
Balkan Sobranie is merely a shell of its former self. Sablebrush may be better at defining exactly why it is no longer anything like it used to be.
But, I prefer Hearth and Home's Whiteknight, excellent Balkan, and almost always available.
As for Esos... just chose whatever you prefer. These are mostly just licorice and treacle versions of everything else availably. They also add apricot to their Virginias, so... YMMV
If you want something similar to BS try Hearth & Home White Knite
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Esoterica has many blends, which one are you after? Stone Haven is the most popular. If that's what you're after, try any burley flake. I like Wessex Burley slices, but it's also kinda hard to come by.
Here's all the Burley flakes that Smoking pipes sells, most of the good ones are always sold out...
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We did a forum taste testing with Russ, just before (or right when) he released it. Most of us found it to be way better than Balkan Sobranie, but tastes are funny... try it for yourself. I really like it.
There is nothing out there I've found that even comes close to matching the Germain's house style. I have a few tins, but sold most of them after the underwhelming experience I had when I finally got to try these lauded blends. There's just much better stuff out there.
You did mention McClelland's, which did virginias right. Unfortunately, their pricing has gotten comical and since hoarding is relatively new to pipe tobacco (as opposed to cigars), it seems people are still willing to feed the market and drive prices higher and higher. All of the flippers and the reseller websites that endorse flipping and currently in a massive experiment to see how high prices can go before people walk away.
You can still get McClellands for a “reasonable” price imo. If you bought a tin 25-30 years ago and asked someone to hold on to it for you until now, and they said “sure just give me a few dollars a year” I wouldn’t think that “comical”. So getting something amazing at that storage rate is something I am 100% okay with. To each their own.
If you’re dying to try some of the hard to find blends, look for them on the Buy/Sell/Trade section of this forum. You’ll need to look *many* times every day and have the cash on hand ready to spend because the good shit goes in literal minutes. If you do this with consistency and patience, you will find what you seek without paying truly bonkers prices.
I believe pipestud has some fairly low prices on some McC Christmas Cheer at the moment. Check out his website by googling his name.
If you’re not into $1/gram of baccy prices and you like Virginia and Virginia/Perique blends try:
Watch City Cigar #558 and Old Dominion (VA/Pers)
Ken Byron Ventures Byronic Hiro and Redline (Virginias)
LJ Peretti #8 slices (VA/Per)
These do not replace McClelland VA blends but they are similar and damn good in their own right and WAY less expensive.
I seldom smoke Latakia anymore so I can’t help you with English or Balkan recommendations. I know some folks like Arango Balkan Supreme. I used to love Wilke High Hat.
I believe pipestud has some fairly low prices on some McC Christmas Cheer at the moment. Check out his website by googling his name.
If you’re not into $1/gram of baccy prices and you like Virginia and Virginia/Perique blends try:
Watch City Cigar #558 and Old Dominion (VA/Pers)
Ken Byron Ventures Byronic Hiro and Redline (Virginias)
LJ Peretti #8 slices (VA/Per)
These do not replace McClelland VA blends but they are similar and damn good in their own right and WAY less expensive.
I seldom smoke Latakia anymore so I can’t help you with English or Balkan recommendations. I know some folks like Arango Balkan Supreme. I used to love Wilke High Hat.
The Esoterica line is the product of a small venerable British manufacturer that's been in the business for about 200 years. A lot of their equipment is ancient, there's more individuality to their product, which is both good and bad, depending. The mania surrounding Esoterica blends goes back farther than the closing of McClelland., at least to 2006, when shipments of Penance stopped for a long while, and devotees of that blend nearly lost their minds. Once shipments fitfully resumed, a feeding frenzy erupted with mass hoarding, really piranha-like behavior, and it has never let up. First it was just Penzance, then the frenzy expanded to include Stonehaven, then Dunbar, and now pretty much the whole line. This is an emotional response to the Psychopathy Of Scarcity, made possible by the "monkey see, monkey do" part of human nature.
Still, in a world of homogenized blending controlled by a few conglomerates, lots of brands that were once individual and idiosyncratic and are now just notches on a corporate belt, a firm like Germain's, blenders of the Esoterica line, and Gawith-Hoggarth represent what's remaining of the great British tradition of pipe tobacco blending. That's a tradition that's not for everyone as there are often flavorings added to the base tobaccos, but those tobaccos tend toward deeper bigger flavors of their own, whether or not they are topped.
All that said, even Germain's has had to adjust their base due to sourcing issues as more and more growers turn to more profitable and less labor intensive crops. I'm not happy with the changes I've tasted from 2020 onward. Fortunately I have enough stock to keep me supplied for the foreseeable future. I don't smoke much Esoterica these days.
Are the Esoterica duplicatable elsewhere? No. Don't let anyone bullshit you on that front. Are they more wonderful than any other tobaccos? To me, no. They're generally good quality, but so are lots of other blends. They are, as has been pointed out, largely, but not wholly, semi-aromatics. I gotta tell you, the luscious Virginias they had in those unflavored blends was spectacular, and recognizable as being Germain's and no one else's. Now, not so much, I think.
Balkan Sobranie was the product of Sobranie Ltd, which closed up around 1980 - 81 and was one of the most popular English blneds on the market for decades. After Sobranie closed, production went to Gallaher, until they closed and the rights were bought by Japan Tobacco, if I remember correctly. The current version is a Germain's clone, using the trade marks and tin artwork. I loved Balkan Sobranie and it's sister blend, 759, when I smoked it in the '70's and '80's, and this current version ain't Balkan Sobranie, no matter what they put on the tin. I find this incarnation utterly revolting, like smoking gas infused puppy farts. By all means, overpay for it.
If you're looking for something that tastes more like the original Balkan Sobranie than this fiasco, you might try White Knight, Russ Oullette's recreation of the 80's era BS. Granted, I haven't smoked any of it in about 8 years, so the blend could easily haved drifted, but if you can find an older tin you might get some sense regarding what all the fuss was about.
For what it's worth with regard to BS, having never had the originals, I like Sutliff's Match BS 759 (and to me, it's way better than the Sutliff Match BSOM... but I like my English blends to be heavier, more savory and more leathery tasting). How they compare to the originals, I can't say.
As to Estoterica blends, from what I gather, they're not bad, but not worth many peoples' asking prices and they're not significantly better than other quality blends. I'd like to try them one day, but I don't want to have to spend $250+ per lot (as that's about the only way anyone sells) to get my hands on some. I want like, 1 oz each, not five whole 50g tins. So to me, it's whatever, I am not worried about it. It's not worth the time or effort to spam refresh the forum or other places to look for a decent deal.
But it's low supply, much of which gets bought by flippers trying to make money, which makes it more scarce, giving themselves more leverage and increasing that FOMO in people that didn't get any and never tried it. People see the high price re-sellers ask and think it must be amazing. I'm sure some reviews are biased and overrate it based on the fact they paid so much (trying to justify to themselves how much they spent without realizing that's what they're doing).
As to Estoterica blends, from what I gather, they're not bad, but not worth many peoples' asking prices and they're not significantly better than other quality blends. I'd like to try them one day, but I don't want to have to spend $250+ per lot (as that's about the only way anyone sells) to get my hands on some. I want like, 1 oz each, not five whole 50g tins. So to me, it's whatever, I am not worried about it. It's not worth the time or effort to spam refresh the forum or other places to look for a decent deal.
But it's low supply, much of which gets bought by flippers trying to make money, which makes it more scarce, giving themselves more leverage and increasing that FOMO in people that didn't get any and never tried it. People see the high price re-sellers ask and think it must be amazing. I'm sure some reviews are biased and overrate it based on the fact they paid so much (trying to justify to themselves how much they spent without realizing that's what they're doing).
I really enjoy Balkan Sobranie, and I have a few tins on hand, which I bought at retail price. As much as I enjoy it, it's not worth the asking price some people have it at on secondary sites. As some have stated already, Hearth and Home - White Knight is a nice substitute for Balkan Sobranie Original Smoking Mixture. For others Hearth and Home - Black House is a nice substitute for Balkan Sobranie 759. I enjoy both tobacco's, but I prefer White Knight more.
As for Esoterica, again not worth the secondary values in my opinion. I've only had a few of those blends (Margate, Pembroke, Penzance, and Stone Haven). I did not care for Stone Haven when I tried it, but I was fairly new into pipe smoking at the time. Not sure if I'd like it now or not as my palate has changed over the years. I do really enjoy Margate as I think it's one of the best English blends available. Pembroke is the same as Margate except that it has a Cognac casing, and is very enjoyable as well. Penzance is another fine English blend, but I prefer Margate of the two. If you can find them at retail give them a go, but at the secondary prices, I'd say you're better off exploring other blends.
As for Esoterica, again not worth the secondary values in my opinion. I've only had a few of those blends (Margate, Pembroke, Penzance, and Stone Haven). I did not care for Stone Haven when I tried it, but I was fairly new into pipe smoking at the time. Not sure if I'd like it now or not as my palate has changed over the years. I do really enjoy Margate as I think it's one of the best English blends available. Pembroke is the same as Margate except that it has a Cognac casing, and is very enjoyable as well. Penzance is another fine English blend, but I prefer Margate of the two. If you can find them at retail give them a go, but at the secondary prices, I'd say you're better off exploring other blends.
If anyone is interested in trying some of these Esoterica blends, I have seen them in more pipe focused B&M stores. Yes, there is the B&M surcharge, but if you find the blend you're looking for right there where you can touch it or smoke it the very second money changes hands might be worth it. At least if you can find a tobacco store that stocks it within a distance you consider reasonable.
Today I learned I like gas infused puppy farts 
-TROPHY ACHIEVED- But seriously, I really dig Germain's Balkan Sobranie. Not as an attempt at being a replica of something, but as it's own stand-alone thing. IMO, it's worth trying, especially if you can find it on a BM shelf. Same with Esoterica.
Smoke everything you can and decide on your own. Our palates, senses, preferences, and experiences are all so incredibly unique and different. If I listened to all the negative reviews of various tobaccos, I'd be missing out on so many blends I love. In fact, when something is polarizing, I know I need to try it. On the flip, so many praised baccys have been utter disappointments to me. Forums, Social Media, and Reddit are all echo chambers when it comes to whether something is good or not, or whether something is worth it or not.
Like RookieGuy mentioned, try your BMs before paying secondary. Keep in mind that Esoterica is highly allocated and BMs usually have to buy X of something (usually something shitty) to get a tiny allocation. For example, one of my BMs has to buy X amount of basket pipes to get a few tins of Esoterica. So if you see it, don't be an asshat and buy every single tin. Leave some for the next person.
But that's the problem - It's the same type of people that swoop in and buy all the Eagle Rares, OpusX, NVIDIAS, and Srirachas. Add in the temptation of selling a ~$45 bag of Stonehaven to China for $500+. To feed the fire, India's luxury market is on track to be the next to big boom, so that will be interesting.
Sable's spot on regarding "Psychopathy Of Scarcity". Damnit, even Sriracha is becoming allocated. There are now -get this- FB secondary markets for Sriracha. But I hear the receipe changed and isn't as good as it used to be.........
-TROPHY ACHIEVED- But seriously, I really dig Germain's Balkan Sobranie. Not as an attempt at being a replica of something, but as it's own stand-alone thing. IMO, it's worth trying, especially if you can find it on a BM shelf. Same with Esoterica.Smoke everything you can and decide on your own. Our palates, senses, preferences, and experiences are all so incredibly unique and different. If I listened to all the negative reviews of various tobaccos, I'd be missing out on so many blends I love. In fact, when something is polarizing, I know I need to try it. On the flip, so many praised baccys have been utter disappointments to me. Forums, Social Media, and Reddit are all echo chambers when it comes to whether something is good or not, or whether something is worth it or not.
Like RookieGuy mentioned, try your BMs before paying secondary. Keep in mind that Esoterica is highly allocated and BMs usually have to buy X of something (usually something shitty) to get a tiny allocation. For example, one of my BMs has to buy X amount of basket pipes to get a few tins of Esoterica. So if you see it, don't be an asshat and buy every single tin. Leave some for the next person.
But that's the problem - It's the same type of people that swoop in and buy all the Eagle Rares, OpusX, NVIDIAS, and Srirachas. Add in the temptation of selling a ~$45 bag of Stonehaven to China for $500+. To feed the fire, India's luxury market is on track to be the next to big boom, so that will be interesting.
Sable's spot on regarding "Psychopathy Of Scarcity". Damnit, even Sriracha is becoming allocated. There are now -get this- FB secondary markets for Sriracha. But I hear the receipe changed and isn't as good as it used to be.........
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I definitely concur with going to B&Ms. That's how I stoked up on the Esoterica blends I liked, at normal retail, while others were whining that it sold out at some on line store, that they couldn't find it, or were being gouged for it.
I concur with searching B&Ms but leaving BM out of it, though some would consider BS and ESO as the equivalent of BM.
It's all relative. I restarted pipe smoking a month or two after Mclelland went out of business. I wanted to know what I missed and I bought a 100g tin of Frog Morton Cellar for $100. That was 3+ years ago and I am just finishing it now and have thoroughly enjoyed smoking it from time to time. I've gotten many smokes out of it.
A box of 20 decent cigars will run $150 - 300. So the value proposition is not as crazy as it seems. Sure, if you smoke multiple bowls a day $1 a gram isn't feasible. But if you want to buy something hard to find and pay a premium price and smoke it occasionally - have at it.
A box of 20 decent cigars will run $150 - 300. So the value proposition is not as crazy as it seems. Sure, if you smoke multiple bowls a day $1 a gram isn't feasible. But if you want to buy something hard to find and pay a premium price and smoke it occasionally - have at it.
Several times, my pipe club and I have pitched in and bought old tins of various things to try. Several including Country Doctor and Sugar Barrel, which were disappointments, ha ha. But, it was neat to try them. I just wouldn't feed flippers. Check out Pipestud. He doesn't seem to be just pandering to flippers.
I wouldn't begrudge someone from spending too much in just trying something. But, you may want to go in with a few folks to split the costs, and it is always more interesting to try a blend with friends.
I wouldn't begrudge someone from spending too much in just trying something. But, you may want to go in with a few folks to split the costs, and it is always more interesting to try a blend with friends.
Unfortunately for me, there's not one that's more pipe-focused within at least an 8-hour round-trip of me... probably further. There's two places in-town but one of them is only about 0.1% pipe focused and 99.9% cigar, the other is maybe 10% pipe and 90% cigar. I've already hit both and they have nothing of any difficulty in acquiring. Beyond that, the next closest place would be an 8-hour round trip away.