Are we Really Losing That Much With the Closures of Mac Baren and Sutliff?

[Gvkeeper]

Ah, the folks who make ‘em, the folks who want to buy them. Me, for that matter, ‘cause PAD still strikes me. But, since nothing’s imminent, I guess it just being philosophical.

 

[Zamora]

Ah, the folks who make ‘em, the folks who want to buy them. Me, for that matter, ‘cause PAD still strikes me. But, since nothing’s imminent, I guess it just being philosophical.

I wouldn't put anything past the FDA. The courts have consistently struck down their attacks on cigars but they won't give up, and the pipe tobacco industry doesn't have nearly as strong a lobby as cigars do and I don't think there's a pipe lobby since we never had to worry about this until recently

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

Ah, the folks who make ‘em, the folks who want to buy them. Me, for that matter, ‘cause PAD still strikes me. But, since nothing’s imminent, I guess it just being philosophical.

And a waste of time to be "scared" which I'm pretty sure you really aren't, now "philosophical", so some healthy de-escalating if it is, but raising alarm bells over something that's been out there for almost a decade and hasn't really affected the ability to buy almost any pipe and no indication it will isn't productive.

Now that meteor @Briar Lee says may wipe you out . . .

 

[KennethR]

Wow! I had no idea pipe makers were registering with the FDA. Makes me think the Agency may be closer to taking a harder look at pipes.

This whole concept of substantial equivalence comes from the medical device industry, which I actually have some experience with. If a new medical device is substantially equivalent to a device which already has FDA approval, the approval for the new device (called a 510k) is pretty streamlined. If your device has no substantial equivalent, you are subject to pre-market approval, a long and complicated process involving significant clinical trials. It looks like the FDA just copied this whole structure for tobacco products. As several of the posters have said, SE is an amorphous term and subject to very subjective interpretation. What struck me, looking at that FDA link, was that Sutliff filed a ton of applications for SE approval for things as petty as changing from a bag to a pouch or from changing from 1 ounce to 1.5 ounces (or vice versa, I forget which). But really petty stuff, as the tobacco itself was not changing. Easy things for the FDA to approve, but — thinking like a lawyer (always a dangerous thing) — if the FDA bureaucrats get it in their heads that SE is limited to such minor changes, perhaps they’d be more skeptical of changing from Cyprian to Turkish Latakia, for example, or changing the Virginia varietal to maintain a flavor profile. Or maybe I just worry too much. It’s a lawyer’s disease, which sticks with you even after you retire.

Great commentary on the FDA and pipes!

 

[KennethR]

Has anyone on this forum communicated with the FDA recently? Does anyone have any insight into future strategies for removing blends or pipes? I know we speculate, but I am interested if someone does.

 

[AirOne]

Well, half of the planet has lost access to three websites overnight, including tobaccoreviews.com. is it a big loss, you tell me

 

[Chasing Embers]

Sorry, flying fingers posted too soon. In reading those notorious Deeming rules, when the FDA asserted its jurisdiction over tobacco products, something hit my eye. In the Guidelines for substantially equivalent predecessors, I noticed that they have subcategories for pipe tobacco…..and one of those categories is pipes. In other words, pipes are categorized as a tobacco products. In FDA speak, it’s probably viewed as a nicotine delivery system. Now the FDA has not made any move that I know of to regulate pipes and as far as I know is not planning any. But what scares me — for the longer term future — is that they think they have the authority to do so. Can you imagine Savinelli having to get FDA approval because they now have a bent pipe with a red stem? Again, no need to panic now, but reason to be alert.

Years ago at the height of the fear of the deeming, several carvers retired to not have to deal with it.

 

[Mike N]

This forum sometimes reminds me of the barber shop in the small town where I grew up. You could get free, expert medical, dental, travel, legal, lawn care and relationship advice, all for the cost of an $8 haircut.

PS There was also a sign that said, "Don't talk about yourself while you're here, we'll do that the minute you leave."

 

[TriedPiper]

I wouldn't put anything past the FDA. The courts have consistently struck down their attacks on cigars but they won't give up

...you got that right. It's some people's life mission to dictate other people's lives. They will never stop.

 

[RPaul]

I kinda like Sutcliff's rather unique blends, but let's be real. Small custom blenders will step in and produce clone blends of anything that sells. I dont think we will be suffering much. Well, except maybe in the budget. Two tins a month instead of three.

Just my $0.02. YMMV!

 

[Chasing Embers]

Small custom blenders

Most of those were using Sutliff tobacco.

 

[KennethR]

Well, half of the planet has lost access to three websites overnight, including tobaccoreviews.com. is it a big loss, you tell me

So right…We are losing a lot of global community

 

[sfduke]

Deleted

 

[sablebrush52]

Most of those were using Sutliff tobacco.

Which Sutliff buys from brokers, who still exist, so tobacconists may be able to continue to buy from those brokers who sold tobaccos to Sutliff.

Some broker policies about minimum order sizes will be needed due to the change of scale between individual tobacconists and a Sutliff. Guess we'll see.

 

[Tinmantoo]

Match(s) Revelation and Mixture 79 will be missed.......

 

[Zamora]

Match(s) Revelation and Mixture 79 will be missed.......

The greatest irony is down the road we'll probably start seeing attempts to match various Sutliff and Mac B blends that got the ax. Some will probably be successful, and others might become something different entirely but still great in their right. On the other hand I don't think there's been any attempts at a Frog Morton match other than home blenders mixing various Lane bulks together, all the blends that many consider to be decently similar weren't intended as matches and debuted when it was still in production.

 

[Servant King]

The greatest irony is down the road we'll probably start seeing attempts to match various Sutliff and Mac B blends that got the ax. Some will probably be successful, and others might become something different entirely but still great in their right. On the other hand I don't think there's been any attempts at a Frog Morton match other than home blenders mixing various Lane bulks together, all the blends that many consider to be decently similar weren't intended as matches and debuted when it was still in production.

Good point there. I'd be up for trying some Match Plumcake, but it ends there. Can you imagine the uproar that would ensue over Match 507-C?

 

[Zamora]

Good point there. I'd be up for trying some Match Plumcake, but it ends there. Can you imagine the uproar that would ensue over Match 507-C?

We'll be seeing matches of matches. It's crazy to think pretty much everything Russ Oulette blended is now out of production, up in smoke if you will. I doubt he'll start blending again

 

[NookersTheCat]

We'll be seeing matches of matches. It's crazy to think pretty much everything Russ Oulette blended is now out of production, up in smoke if you will. I doubt he'll start blending again

As a Balkan lover myself idt people still realize how much of a loss this is. I think that area was his undisputed kingdom

 

[Sobrbiker]

Good point there. I'd be up for trying some Match Plumcake, but it ends there. Can you imagine the uproar that would ensue over Match 507-C?

You mean PS LNF?