US Pipe Tobacco Companies ?

[Sig]

I had stopped pipe smoking for a number of years.....not quit.....just stopped.
Spring 2024 I unstopped.
I know Sutliff was around prior to 2018 when I stopped piping, but it was not as HUGE as it was when I unstopped last Spring.
Prior to 2018 I rarely heard the name Sutliff, and I was extremely involved in the pipe community.
When I returned last Spring, 1/2 of all posts here mentioned Sutliff.
Anyways, the only experience I have with Sutliff is from one large order in April 2024.
I got some Red Virginia Ribbon and a few "match" blends just to try.
The RVR is good, but the match blends do not resemble MY recollection of blends I had years before. The few match blends I bought were of some of my absolute favorites from the past. The Sutliff matches were not even close.....in my opinion.
I honestly don't understand the hate C&D gets. Sure, if you buy 3 blends containing VA and Perique, they might taste similar. But to say they all taste the same is goofy.....in my opinion.
Two of my favorites, Briar Fox and Star of the East could not taste more different.

 

[shermnatman]

Same with Zappa… he is mostly known for his childish 10 year old fart joke humor lyrics, but he did so much more.

Precisely.

As a formerly-avid Zappa fan going back to the mid-70s, I have to say THIS is possibly the most succinct and spot-on analysis and review of Zappa's existence and back-catalog of material I have ever read; as it relates to the Masses-at-Large.

For those who didn't go through the experience, here's what the Evolution of Frank Zappa Fan looks like:

Stage 1) Appreciate and Associate Zappa purely for his Sophomoric naughty-humor loaded novelty songs; ala' Benny Bell and Dr. Demento;

Stage 2) View yourself as an "Avant garde' Musical Connoisseur", and old-out your musical pinky in awe as you take-in and experience his esoteric modal-interchange wizardry and odd-time signature weirdness, relieved by the fact that he has finally 'shut-up and is playing his guitar';

Stage 3) Stop regularly listening to Zappa-Music; and admire Zappa for his Chess Master-like logic, displayed by his incredible oratory skills while testifying before The United States Congress;

Stage 4) Occasionally watch old video interviews of Zappa - now a dead guy - on YouTube, and instead of focusing on what "Frank" is actually yammering-on and pontificating about, end-up mostly wonder how many typical people today know much about him, beyond the "naughty lyric-loaded novelty songs"; or care.

So yes, from my perspective, @cosmicfolklore nailed-it. - Sherm Natman

 

[crashthegrey]

I don't think C&D is "merely" a boutique blender. They are now exporting many blends to Europe.
And, I don't think Sutliff was much of anything on Tobacco Row. C&D has been a much larger operation than Sutliff for a while now.

C&D was much smaller than Sutliff was.

 

[crashthegrey]

Sutliff couldn't even make flakes. They had to commission STG to do that. The majority of what Sutliff did was pour toppings onto already processed leaf. That was about it... and tin them. I'm not sure what science you are referring to.

For years on here, we've had three members who would always say, "Sutliff processes tobaccos for other companies." Yes, they poured goop onto tobacco for other companies. I'm sure they may have done other stuff also, but gooping the leaf was sort of their main job.

This is all factually incorrect. They processed the leaf. They had the only conditioner in the US for a long time. And a bonded warehouse full of the raw bails of tobacco. Gooping leaf was a vast minority of what they did. They made all of SPC, a ton of Peretti, much of Watch City. I was in the factory while they conditioned the leaf and blended it for them. They also made a ton of flakes. I have pictures of all of their Flake presses. It was a thicker flake, STG makes most of the thin flakes for everyone because it takes a different cutter.
Sutliff literally had a lab and scientist on years ago. All of that goop was tested and formulated, and sold to many of the companies people love.
Many companies literally needed Sutliff to reconditioned leaf from dry for them, and the Mac Baren family was still sourcing crazy amounts of raw leaf and sending it to Sutliff to process for lots of companies up until very recently.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

This is all factually incorrect. They processed the leaf. They had the only conditioner in the US for a long time. And a bonded warehouse full of the raw bails of tobacco. Gooping leaf was a vast minority of what they did. They made all of SPC, a ton of Peretti, much of Watch City. I was in the factory while they conditioned the leaf and blended it for them. They also made a ton of flakes. I have pictures of all of their Flake presses. It was a thicker flake, STG makes most of the thin flakes for everyone because it takes a different cutter.
Sutliff literally had a lab and scientist on years ago. All of that goop was tested and formulated, and sold to many of the companies people love.
Many companies literally needed Sutliff to reconditioned leaf from dry for them, and the Mac Baren family was still sourcing crazy amounts of raw leaf and sending it to Sutliff to process for lots of companies up until very recently.

Why was the only flake they sold made by STG?
And again, go back to my previous posts about what we pipesmokers see, the optics of what they put on the shelf as to how it pertains to the original conversation.

They may have been handpicking every leaf for every pipe tobacco company, just as Ford may be processing all the cheese in Wisconsin, but what the consumers sees is the perception we’ve had. Sutliff has been the gooper and Ford makes vehicles that break down a lot.

Whether they have had a backroom subsidizing their aromatic industry has no bearing on what we the consumer see.

For years now, everytime someone says they don’t like Sutliff blends, a trio of members chimes in that they do so much more than that. So, because they do these other things doesn’t make me want to smoke a Sutliff gooper.

Facts verses consumer opinions have no correlation.

 

[crashthegrey]

Why was the only flake they sold made by STG?
And again, go back to my previous posts about what we pipesmokers see, the optics of what they put on the shelf as to how it pertains to the original conversation.

They may have been handpicking every leaf for every pipe tobacco company, just as Ford may be processing all the cheese in Wisconsin, but what the consumers sees is the perception we’ve had. Sutliff has been the gooper and Ford makes vehicles that break down a lot.

Whether they have had a backroom subsidizing their aromatic industry has no bearing on what we the consumer see.

For years now, everytime someone says they don’t like Sutliff blends, a trio of members chimes in that they do so much more than that. So, because they do these other things doesn’t make me want to smoke a Sutliff gooper.

Facts verses consumer opinions have no correlation.

Some consumers chose to see what they wanted to see. In Jeremy's decade there, he dispelled a lot of these myths, but some chose to cling to an old idea.I wonder what these bricks of tobacco were for if not flakes. All of the Pipe Force flakes were made at Sutliff. L.J. Peretti anniversary flake was made there. In fact, all the boutique blenders needed Sutliff to make their flakes. Country Squire 500th episode flake, made at Sutliff. You have probably smoked more Sutliff Tobacco without realizing it then you will ever know, because they were cool about keeping it quiet.

 

[crashthegrey]

Raw leaf, straight out of the primary at Sutliff. Straight Rustica, in thousand pound bails, just for a project we were working on.

A warehouse with over $2 million in raw leaf. Odd.

 

[Sobrbiker]

as I’m relatively new, am I wrong thinking that Sutliff got the “gooper” rep when a sale or merger brought Altadis’s large aro menu under the same roof?

It’s funny that the all poundage of Sutliff I bought at the end was all non-aro (except for two 4oz packs specifically to try a blend telescopes raves about).

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Some consumers chose to see what they wanted to see. In Jeremy's decade there, he dispelled a lot of these myths, but some chose to cling to an old idea.View attachment 389414I wonder what these bricks of tobacco were for if not flakes. All of the Pipe Force flakes were made at Sutliff. L.J. Peretti anniversary flake was made there. In fact, all the boutique blenders needed Sutliff to make their flakes. Country Squire 500th episode flake, made at Sutliff. You have probably smoked more Sutliff Tobacco without realizing it then you will ever know, because they were cool about keeping it quiet.

If a flake was made by Sutliff and someone else put their name on it, it was not a Sutliff flake. Again, why did STG make their only flake sold?

I’m not saying you’re wrong. But, by your logic, when you smoke Key Largo or Montgomery your smoking a C&D product, and I think Greg would beg to differ.

Mercedes makes the parts for my Nissan, does yhat mean I’m driving a Mercedes pick up? No, of course not. That would be stupid.

I think we all see what we want to see. Everyone hasn’t had the privilege of walking through a Sutliff plant and talking to the workers, so we see whats on the label… so, if someone doesn’t like any of Sutliff’s products and they smoke these other things you mention, which I do not, that does not mean that they unknowingly love Sutliff. It means that Sutliff was hired to do a job. And someone else gets the credit for it.

But, keep on, this is fun.

 

[crashthegrey]

If a flake was made by Sutliff and someone else put their name on it, it was not a Sutliff flake. Again, why did STG make their only flake sold?

I’m not saying you’re wrong. But, by your logic, when you smoke Key Largo or Montgomery your smoking a C&D product, and I think Greg would beg to differ.

Mercedes makes the parts for my Nissan, does yhat mean I’m driving a Mercedes pick up? No, of course not. That would be stupid.

I think we all see what we want to see. Everyone hasn’t had the privilege of walking through a Sutliff plant and talking to the workers, so we see whats on the label… so, if someone doesn’t like any of Sutliff’s products and they smoke these other things you mention, which I do not, that does not mean that they unknowingly love Sutliff. It means that Sutliff was hired to do a job. And someone else gets the credit for it.

But, keep on, this is fun.

507C is not their only flake. It was made by STG, but far from their only flake. And yes, when a company says, "Can you make a cool flake for us?" and Sutliff designs the blend, uses their own leaf, blends it, presses it, cuts it, tins it, and designs the label for them, I would call it a Sutliff product. The other company had nothing to do with the development or production. If you ask me to make a line of pipes for you and stamp them Cosmic, it is a Kaywoodie stamped Cosmic.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

507C is not their only flake. It was made by STG, but far from their only flake. And yes, when a company says, "Can you make a cool flake for us?" and Sutliff designs the blend, uses their own leaf, blends it, presses it, cuts it, tins it, and designs the label for them, I would call it a Sutliff product. The other company had nothing to do with the development or production. If you ask me to make a line of pipes for you and stamp them Cosmic, it is a Kaywoodie stamped Cosmic.

No, no it wouldn't, no more than it would be right in any way if I told people I drove a Mercedes truck.
Edit: pipe companies are all the time making pipes for other companies, and the company of manufacture does not take credit for those pipes. They do so by those companies request and design.

But, ultimately, the whole OP gets sidelined by this inane argument by Sutliff loyalists, ha ha. But, what does it matter. They are dead now, and 20 years from now, no one is going to be saying... Sutliff, they made some good stuff for other companies. They will go down in history as a gooper. And, I'm not even sure why that bothers people. Nothing wrong with goopers. Lots of people liked them. A few of us just did not. End of story.

 

[telescopes]

Sutliff provided many blending tobaccos that so far, I have not seen others picking up the now missing blending lines. They were an excellent source for Maryland, Latakia, various Turkish leaf blends, as well as various lines of bleeding burleys, Virginias, and other straight leaf tobaccos. It is why more than quite a few blenders sourced from them when creating their own blends for sale.

 

[crashthegrey]

No, no it wouldn't, no more than it would be right in any way if I told people I drove a Mercedes truck.
Edit: pipe companies are all the time making pipes for other companies, and the company of manufacture does not take credit for those pipes. They do so by those companies request and design.

But, ultimately, the whole OP gets sidelined by this inane argument by Sutliff loyalists, ha ha. But, what does it matter. They are dead now, and 20 years from now, no one is going to be saying... Sutliff, they made some good stuff for other companies. They will go down in history as a gooper. And, I'm not even sure why that bothers people. Nothing wrong with goopers. Lots of people liked them. A few of us just did not. End of story.

Nope. But you'll see the boutique blenders missing all kinds of stuff Sutliff did for them. You are missing many of my points. But it is cool. Set in your ways, as am I.

 

[dd57chevy]

Nope. But you'll see the boutique blenders missing all kinds of stuff Sutliff did for them.

That was part of the reason for my OP . What other sources do WC , Peretti's , Wilke's s , etc. have ?

 

[sablebrush52]

This argument is still going on? What's the point? No side is buying the other's side's argument. Seriously, don't waste the time. Life isn't getting any longer for any of us.

 

[telescopes]

This argument is still going on? What's the point? No side is buying the other's side's argument. Seriously, don't waste the time. Life isn't getting any longer for any of us.

Jesse - I truly appreciate your points in this discussion. For me, Sutliff was the blender I relied on for blending tobaccos. I know many others did as well. While some of these leaves are available, many are not - at least not in the way Sutliff offered them.

For example:

Blending Latakia
Blending Perique (St. James)
Maryland
Several various Turkish leaf blends
Smoked, Sweet, Yellow, Red, etc blending virginias
Various blending burleys
as well as Green River Cavendishes specifically designed for blending.

In addition to the different blends, they offered various cuts of some of these blends that were important in creating various taste effects.

For the small time blender who doesn't have the time or interest to work with whole leaf - Sutliff was a great source. To the OP's question, what they don't have is the umbrella of resources that was Sutliff. What they do have is the ability to get various leaf from various companies that at this time are not marketing directly to us as did Sutliff.

 

[sablebrush52]

True, but the deal is done. The property is up for sale.
I can tell you that blenders who relied on Sutliff had time to stock up before the news hit the forum. For the time being the ship sales on. And perhaps some enterprising broker will offer varietals to the retail market if they think there’s money to be made.

 

[NookersTheCat]

Sutliff provided many blending tobaccos that so far, I have not seen others picking up the now missing blending lines. They were an excellent source for Maryland, Latakia, various Turkish leaf blends, as well as various lines of bleeding burleys, Virginias, and other straight leaf tobaccos. It is why more than quite a few blenders sourced from them when creating their own blends for sale.

I've heard rumblings (though I realize that coming from random forum members could be as solid info as the rumblings that come not from our mouths but another orifice.. ) that the next leaf type to take a real nosedive in availability, quality, and variety (a-la Latakia) is going to be Turkish/Orientals...

I've also heard that this was one of the reasons speculated for being a coffin nail in the old Daughter's and Ryan (people may forget how one of their biggest bulks used to be Ramback which was considered one of the finest Turkish bulks around by many)...

Also been hearing that the more boutique varietals like Yendje have been drying up as well (perhaps another nail in the coffin of STG axing all the Russ Oulette H&H Balkans) though that one's pure speculation on my part...

... In your experience do you see any of this to be true?


It would certainly make sense to me based on the market trends. The funny thing is (another tangent that probably deserves it's own thread) that we hear SO MUCH about what an endangered species Perique is but imho that seems to be alot of bluster... sure it's a labor intensive process but it's made in this country and has seen alot of investment and protection both by Mark Ryan and C&D respectively. Hell, to me it seems like we're probably in the golden age of VaPer's... it seems almost every new blend (including the lion's share of new and/or limited releases) are essentially just new VaPer's...
Idk... this is all just the absurdities that echo through my skull. But very curious as to what actual insiders like you or @crashthegrey think about it though

 

[telescopes]

Certainly not an insider, but yes, Turkish varietals might become more of an endangered species more than it already is. For pipe smokers like myself, being able to create my own blends is an important aspect of enjoying smoking. My latest blend, 88s, depended heavily on Smyrna and Yendje - I was able to get those tobaccos as single varietals which allowed me direct control over mixing my blend. That blend also used white burley and Maryland as well as Latakia and Perique and various Virginias. It was my most complicated blend, but after it aged, it was a great tasting tobacco blend. As of now, I have stored what I have stored. I pressed most of it and stoved a few jars. But I won't be able to recreate it.

The same goes for what I called , Poor Man's Penzance - A blend that tastes very much like Star of the East - just missing the topping I never got around to experimenting to see if I could take it the last leg of the journey.

Anyway, Sutliff did more than make aromatics. It made home blending possible as well.

 

[nukesimi]

Certainly not an insider, but yes, Turkish varietals might become more of an endangered species more than it already is. For pipe smokers like myself, being able to create my own blends is an important aspect of enjoying smoking. My latest blend, 88s, depended heavily on Smyrna and Yendje - I was able to get those tobaccos as single varietals which allowed me direct control over mixing my blend. That blend also used white burley and Maryland as well as Latakia and Perique and various Virginias. It was my most complicated blend, but after it aged, it was a great tasting tobacco blend. As of now, I have stored what I have stored. I pressed most of it and stoved a few jars. But I won't be able to recreate it.

The same goes for what I called , Poor Man's Penzance - A blend that tastes very much like Star of the East - just missing the topping I never got around to experimenting to see if I could take it the last leg of the journey.

Anyway, Sutliff did more than make aromatics. It made home blending possible as well.

Okay where do you source Yenidje?