Newbie Trying to Understand Hand Made Pipe Price Values

[scotmix]

How is a hand made briar pipe's price determined and how much of that price is simply associated to demand raising the suggested retail?

I'm not thinking of basket pipes or multiple replicated factory pipes based on an original form. I am trying to see what retail mark up is for a good entry level unsmoked hand made briar pipe. Lets for example use an ebochaun from the outside layer of a Mediterranean Heath burl aged 50 years prior to being harvested. I am also not thinking of stopping in at Jess Chonowitch's place over coffee and having him make me one right there and then; kidding of course, that would never happen as I'd expect to pay $5000 for that fantasy purchase at least but you get the idea I hope.

Being new to this hobby but seriously hooked I am trying to educate myself on what is actual value and what is retail mark up. I have no issue with a guy trying to make a profit but how much profit is simply based on luxury (ie the market demand will pay that amount) and how much is solid actual value outside of the fashion aspect. Reason I ask is I have been reading some reputable books on the subject and watching interviews on Youtube of world famous carvers and how they price pipes. My reading in particular is from a 1965 book by Carl Weber where in his opinion a good briar will start at $15 US (he referenced basket pipe prices separately) which I calculated out in today's dollars is actually $120 US now. I also watched a interview on Youtube with Mr Jess Chonowitch who mentions he had been approached by international retailers and collectors who offered him 50% to I think 70% over his usual price for his pieces many years ago when the Americans were building the briar pipe market in the US. I also read a book by R. Newcombe titled "In Search of Pipe Dreams" where he documents himself actually meeting with these international artisans and discussing US markets for for their pipes.

So that is where I am basing my question. Much like womens haircut fees, clothing or jewelery is marked up 4 times its value due to it being a fashion industry (I pay the bills here so I see what it costs my wife) is it the same for briar pipes. Yes I understand availability and market demand determines the price. A hand made pipe is a one and only version and the hours involved to make it are quite extensive. I am also aware perhaps most briar ebochauns are perhaps only 50 years old now as opposed to 200 years old - big difference in value I am sure. I am also aware different parts of a Heath burl produce better ebochauns and are priced accordingly; outer being more expensive due to denser grain. What percent is mark up and how much of the price is real material and labour.

As an example I looked at smokingpipes,com and found 80 Dunhills and their associated prices deleting the high end kits ($3000 US) and entry level prices ($450 US). I calculated that a Dunhill average asking price is $700 roughly. Once again I am not looking to offend anyone's values in any one brand or a retailers pipe pricing strategy. They set the price its up to me to accept that price but that is hard to do given my ignorance of this new hobby. I am trying to understand what mark up is so that if I see a great pipe in Ebay I will know values and be ready to take a chance on a good briar despite the price tag shock without being taken for a ride. There are retailers out there who do misrepresent their products as I have been stung in the past for instance only later learning about pressed and block Meerschaum when I bought a $400 Meer Calabash from over seas. I bought an advertised block Meer but I received a pressed Meer bowl instead which promptly cracked in a day. Lesson learned!

So if the Weber text is saying I will be looking at $120 for a good unsmoked pipe (note he was not identifying Dunhill I just grabbed that as an example) where does the other $500 come from in the Dunhill example? I hope and trust that is a fair example to use. Based on my limited experience that previously calculated $700 Dunhill average then includes at least $400 mark up for a suggested retail sale price. If everyone will pay that, and if I want it, I better "strap on a pair" and hit the Ebay "buy it now" button. I am hoping to learn how to ensure I am getting a fair deal when buying pipes I can't hold first by determining what the 'fashion percentage' is in pipe pricing. If I want a specific pipe but a portion of the retail cost of having it means I have to give up $500 just for that privilege then I will pass as I am not a seasoned collector. I just really like pipes!

 

[jpmcwjr]

The market price is the market price. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this line of inquiry: What pipes do you like, what do you have now?
FWIW, I am a fan of estate pipes when it comes to high end pipes, as well as artisan carvers.

 

[carolinachurchwarden]

Short answer? It depends on a lot of variables. Like the quality of briar, the size, the detail of the carving. There's quite a lot of variables, but basically I look at it like this: It's value is as good as the people that would buy it. Also, the name plays a huge role. I could carve the exact same thing as one of your other famous carvers. They could be identical, but yet mine would never fetch the same price because he's who he is.
Honestly, I wish I could figure it out, but it's like the housing market where I live. A lot of neighborhoods are being track built in my area, especially over in what they call the RTP (Research Triangle Park). I built homes for about 5 years in Myrtle Beach, SC, and they were track built. I know what goes into them. I know what's invested. Those homes are maybe worth $100-$150,000, yet the asking price is $400-$500,000 and it makes me want to puke. People moving in that can afford it will pay it and never think about the quality, they just don't care. I, on the other hand, had to move completely across town to afford a house, even though I work 5 minutes from those new homes, but cannot afford it. I might not buy it it if I could afford it, just to make a point, but the point never gets made, because someone will buy it.
Some things just seem to go for more money and either you buy it, laugh at it, or watch someone else buy it. It's certainly a fascinating thing to try to understand at least.

 

[warren]

A good deal to one, may be a steal to another. There is so much in your post that requires defining because of the subjective interpretation required of the words. And, there is a learning curve.
The best I could advise is that you take the time to watch sales and bidding to determine what the "market" considers to be a "decent" price. The "norm" must be applied to your value. In other words, I might find a pipe which is worth x number of dollars and another thinks I was gypped in the transaction. It takes time to get a feel for the market. But, the value of a pipe is purely subjective to buyer, especially when taking into consideration one's own economic situation. A lot of members here are always confounded by some prices asked and paid. A ten dollar pipe, required to complete a collection of some sort, may be worth much more to the buyer. This is when a bidding war may start.
Your first investment should be time/patience, so as to get a feel for the market. This time can also be used to determine your preferences in shapes/fittings/brands/etc.
"Mark up" is truly irrelevant if you find a pipe you desire. In the end it's the value you place on a pipe. Will you get "stuck" now and then? Probably. Knowledge/experience doesn't come cheap.

 

[lightmybriar]

A perfectly good smoke can be had in a $5 corncob, just as much as it can be had in a $600 Eltang. A pipe, at its most basic, is a piece of material that has a chamber running through it. As long as that works, the rest is all added bonus. Size, shape, finish, texture, etc.
It's all about what a pipe is worth to you. I love Dunhills. I love the history, the shaping, the finishes, the date codes, everything. Therefore, I'm willing to pay the money for them. I buy them all as estate pipes, though, and the most I've ever paid was $250 for a birthyear Cumberland that excitingly turned out to be unsmoked when I unpackaged it. You can get the Dunhill of your dreams, whatever that may be, on ebay and for a great price most of the time. The range goes from $75-$350 in my experience. It just depends on who is competing with you in the bid.
A lot of pipemakers appear to charge a lot, but one has to factor in all the overheads (machinery, electricity, time) and years of experience in the field when thinking about price. On top of that, you also have name and history and collectibility etc.
So it isn't so easy a question to answer, except for to say, a pipe is worth what you think it is, and if you don't think it's worth it, then find one that you do.

 

[scotmix]

These are all excellent answers and I'm grateful gentlemen. I am taking my time, buying books, joining forums, watching Youtube uploads, checking out the Ebay "sold" prices on any pipe I may like if I see one. I know what I like now in pipes and tobacco. I have a couple of $500 Danish unsmoked hand made pipes and they smoke and handle wonderfully. I also have a $60 BBB estate which smokes just as well but it looks no where near as sharp as my Danish pipes.
Carolinacurchwarden you get where I am coming from with the statement "Those homes are maybe worth $100-$150,000, yet the asking price is $400-$500,000 and it makes me want to puke.". I am familiar with residential real estate and it never ceases to shock me what some homes are priced at and what they sell for but I can figure out that difference for myself and judge if I am willing to pay that extra.

There will be an extra as there should be as no one sells at a loss and stays in business long. When it comes to pipes I don't have that experience. You guys have taught me a few things so thank you all. I appreciate your kind patience if my question seems foolish but I really do not know enough yet and being retired means I am on a budget.

 

[npod]

I used to post long responses to this frequent question. Now, having nearly completed an MBA program, I find that jpm’s Answer is freaking brilliant, simple, clear, perfect.

The market price is the market price.

 

[acidpox]

I'm a newbie and at 1st the price of pipes did astound me.(dunhill for example) but then I looked at it like the art world, pieces have sold for millions of dollars that I wouldn't give you 50 dollars for. It comes down to supply and demand and what the owner or Carver values it at and how much people are willing to pay. In my opinion a good pipe comes down to drilling and the wood it's made out of, the rest is if you like it or not and the name. But then again I'm still a newbie and the most expensive pipe I've smoked is 100 dollars so I could be way off with my options.

 

[saltedplug]

Dunhil;s are overpriced by 100%. I wouldn't look to them for any estimate of fairness. I think your best plan might be to buy from whomever is the current favorite son of a particular forum, Ryan Alden now, here.
As regards pricing, what bills does the carver have, how many children does he support, what price does he feel his creativity and his labor demand?
I think a fine artisan pipe can be had between $400.00 and $500.00. But the big secret is that paying a stiff price won't get you a better smoking pipe than a cob.

 

[chilly65]

I for one think this is a very valid question.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Dunhil;s are overpriced by 100%. I wouldn't look to them for any estimate of fairness. I think your best plan might be to buy from whomever is the current favorite son of a particular forum, Ryan Alden now, here.

Dunhills are priced by the market. And, yes, Ryan Alden is highly respected here.

As regards pricing, what bills does the carver have, how many children does he support, what price does he feel his creativity and his labor demand?

For artisan pipes, it makes no difference how many children or wives he has, nor whether he's rich, poor or middle classe. The latter is a starting point, and his feeling of the worth of the pipes is a good starting point, but again, the market decides.

I think a fine artisan pipe can be had between $400.00 and $500.00. But the big secret is that paying a stiff price won't get you a better smoking pipe than a cob.

With some definitions of "better". Some people don't like cobs at at all!

 

[ashdigger]

I'm in the "don't like cobs" camp. Do I own cobs, yes. Do I smoke cobs, yes. Do I prefer cobs, no.
I've never seen a ring grain cob. I've never seen a straight grain cob.
What's missing is art value. I just flat out prefer the shaping, staining, configuration, sandblasting and esthetic quality of a briar.
They are not just pipes. They are functional art.
If you want a cob, buy a cob

If you want functional art buy a briar AND the skill involved in making a pipe doesn't come easy. Hard work and attention to details all come together in the form of a briar pipe.
Is Ryan Alden held in high regard on this Forum....damn right he is.
I really like his pipes, in fact, I own 32 of them.

 

[sasquatch]

I just wanna chime in and say I hate Ryan Alden's guts. How he manages to make fine pipes with those sausage fingers I'll never know.
And the snoring! Don't get me started. And he drinks all the whisky. Bad, bad man.
Anyway lots of good and correct info has been given out here about pricing - it's not quite random and it's not quite predictable or linear.
From my point of view, I have a specialized shop with specialized tooling (to the tune of about 5 grand if you just went out and bought what I have to make pipes on). The guys down the block mill doors and door jambs for hinges - they have a table saw and a router jig. Their shop rate is like 90 bucks an hour.
Let's make a pipe by hand. Draw one up, select a block (or two, sometimes a block doesn't work so good after all). You spend... a day, roughly, to make a pipe. Bout half is stem stuff, half stummel stuff on an ordinary pipe. This could be slanted in either direction by the shape or finish of the pipe, or the complexity of the stem. But let's just put in an 8 hour day and say we got a pipe done.
What's it worth? Well, 8x90 as a shop rate is 560 (Edit hell I didn't even to the math right, it's 720! I'a get rich!) bucks right there. And materials on top - 35 to 50 for a nice piece of wood, 10 bucks for stem stuff. Maybe 5 bucks in consumables- sandpaper,stain, wax, little tools that sometimes break... . So I mean, there's 600 bucks.
But it doesn't work like that, it really doesn't. No one cares if I make a pipe in 8 hours or 20, or 2. They care that the pipe is nice (inside and out presumably). Being in the business awhile helps - a new guy, unknown, just won't get the same price a dude who is 10 or 20 years in will get. Reputation means a lot to a lot of folks. So I can make a billiard, and get 3 or 4 hundred bucks for it, and maybe a new guy could make the same pipe (unlikely but let's roll with it) and not get the same dollar for it, cuz new guy.
Some collectors want certain grain, some a shape, some want to be associated with a certain posse... god there's all kinds of reasons people buy pipes at certain price points.
The moral of the story is, look around, get educated about what's a good carve vs what's a bad carve, get educated about who might actually know what they are doing making a pipe vs who is busy on instagram on any given day. Then make a choice about how and what you buy.

 

[newbroom]

I too was fascinated by the myriad choices available, and their respective performance and what made them desirable esthetically to other pipe smokers (ones with experience).
I too, began with a lowly MM Legend purchased from the corner drug store, AND smoked it relentlessly for about 2 months before I got another pipe. By that time, it had become somewhat bulbous and showed some tiny exterior cracks.
I still smoke it regularly and haven't done anything but switch out the stem. ( I have the original, 4yrs and more, and it's still usable)
I went the estate route, got 'me' a Dunhill too. Paid $67.00 for it, and now I know something about the brand, second hand. (I got an older bent Shellbriar, btw, it's in my avatar and the stem isn't original.)
I became a pipe hunter for estates and that has been a lot of fun, but I may have had too much fun.

I've got a large selection of smokable estate pipes as a result, perhaps now that I reflect on it, too large.

It's because I would say to myself that if I wanted to, I could sell them for a profit. ha ha. That idea is a dodo.
I have enjoyed every minute and dime spent!

 

[haparnold]

Yes, any pipe, no matter how Artfully crafted, is just a hunk of wood with a straw stuck in it. And the Grand Canyon in just a hole in Arizona.
The reason a pipe costs what it does is that other people are willing to pay at least that much for it. End of story. In economics jargon, we'd say any individual buyer is a 'price-taker', because any consumer (except maybe Peck and Banjo) is such a small share of the overall market that their purchasing decisions don't effect price.
No matter whether Dunhills have a 100% markup or not, or whether Ryan Alden is actually building a summer home in Antigua with proceeds from carving pipes, if you're not willing to pay the market price, you'll probably never own one of these pipes (barring the rare lucky eBay deal or whatever).

 

[Chasing Embers]

barring the rare lucky eBay deal or whatever

Or if you are buddies with the carver. :mrgreen:

 

[blackadderlxx]

Short answer? It depends on a lot of variables. Like the quality of briar, the size, the detail of the carving. There's quite a lot of variables, but basically I look at it like this: It's value is as good as the people that would buy it. Also, the name plays a huge role. I could carve the exact same thing as one of your other famous carvers. They could be identical, but yet mine would never fetch the same price because he's who he is.
Honestly, I wish I could figure it out, but it's like the housing market where I live. A lot of neighborhoods are being track built in my area, especially over in what they call the RTP (Research Triangle Park). I built homes for about 5 years in Myrtle Beach, SC, and they were track built. I know what goes into them. I know what's invested. Those homes are maybe worth $100-$150,000, yet the asking price is $400-$500,000 and it makes me want to puke. People moving in that can afford it will pay it and never think about the quality, they just don't care. I, on the other hand, had to move completely across town to afford a house, even though I work 5 minutes from those new homes, but cannot afford it. I might not buy it it if I could afford it, just to make a point, but the point never gets made, because someone will buy it.
Some things just seem to go for more money and either you buy it, laugh at it, or watch someone else buy it. It's certainly a fascinating thing to try to understand at least.

Dude. This. Excellent answer. I'm constantly talking to my son about how in life we need to try and figure out HOW someone's trying to get our money, then refuse to play their game. I always go for the "working man" tier in everything.

 

[mso489]

Consider the time and intense labor that go into a finely crafted pipe, not to mention the talent and overhead for working space and tools. How much would you expect to net as a return if it where you? I suspect if it were you, tallying up the expenses, your asking price would get well above the mid-range for artisan pipes. If you want to get a good feel for pricing and room for negotiation, attend a pipe show and respectfully discuss this with the carvers themselves. I admired the pipes of a particular artisan over several shows. He was out of my price range, beginning at the several hundred dollar level. Eventually, he stunned me by offering me a fairly unique and upscale pipe at a staggeringly reasonable price; obviously he wanted me to have it. It was an offer I could not possibly refuse. So price is a convergence of market and human factors.

 

[scotmix]

Still the terrific answers are coming in thank you all; this forum is definitely a legitimate place to ask questions. I understand and support the market value philosophy and I completely comprehend and respect the artisan work and material involved. I will use my previous example of the Chonowitch interview on Youtube in which he is discussing his prices. It was the point at which he was discussing how he had been approached by US, Japanese and Chinese retailers all offering him more than the last guy so they can sell his art in their respective countries. He did not set the final sale price; a very wise and market savy person raised the price because he knew he could get that back in their country. The final agreed upon said price has nothing to do with material, time or experience - he already had that built into his initial price. Chonowitch specifically identifies there all all kinds of carvers all of a sudden now and that there is a market demand for the prices being asked. He also says in 5 years most of those new carvers will be gone - out of business. No one will buy their pipes as although they may look a bit similar to his they are nothing close to what decades of experience can provide from a family run business. Several of the responses I've read here have involved research, meeting carvers or attending shows. If I were in the US that would be possible but in Canada tobacco is treated like toxic waste and is being forced out of the consumers reach. There are few if any pipe shows and tio find a real Tobaccanist is like looking for the Holy Grail here. If I think I have found a tobacconist I usually find I am just in another head shop full of pot related garbage. Please forgive me if I ruffled any respected artisan's feathers by asking the question about the value of pipes as it is not my intention to judge negatively. I am trying to determine real value, the associated artists well deserved profit and plain greed. I live in a country where your $10 US pouch of tobacco costs me $60 here. Its tough to separate the material value, artists deserved profit and out right greed which is preying on ego related retail therapy. My understanding of my answers here is the trick seems to be to identify a pipe carver with a solid reputation and then decide if I can accept the price. I've done so in the past and paid the big bucks and $500 is a lot of bucks for me specially for one of life's simple pleasures. I own a US carvers work and a couple of Danish original pieces and those pipes are the most wonderful companions I share my time with by the fire at night (second to my wife of course). Thank you all for your time and thoughts.

 

[ashdigger]

I am trying to determine real value, the associated artists well deserved profit and plain greed. I live in a country where your $10 US pouch of tobacco costs me $60 here. Its tough to separate the material value, artists deserved profit and out right greed which is preying on ego related retail therapy.

You cannot relate a $10 pouch of US tobacco to that same $60 Canadian pouch. That's taxes, not artisanal "greed".