What's The Difference? (Rhodesian or Bulldog)

[fedez1]

I usually call "rhodesian" the shape with round shank and "bulldog" the square one. But I read about another criteria:
"The Bulldog has an upright bowl, with just a bit of inclination at the top part of the bowl.

The Rhodesian has a bowl exhibiting an "acute" inclination at the bowl rim, that is, a sort of squatted bowl. (Imagine making the perfect Bulldog using marzipan, and then squashing the bowl from the sides of the upper part, from out in!)" (http://www.theitalianpipe.com/infowell/articles/bullrhod.htm)
In a darwinian perspective the two shapes we are talking about are like fishes and whales: both two can swim and live in the water, but they arrived to the same goal walking through different paths.
So the Rhodesian seems to came from the "apple" shape, while the "bulldog" from the billiard.

Boh?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

That whole bowl size and shape thing... toss it. We've fought this war. The bowl size and shape lost, and the shank people won. Lets bury our dead and move on.

 

[disinformatique]

@Cosmic For common folks like me, the shank differentiation is easier to understand than the specifics of the bowl shapes.
Chris :puffpipe:

 

[misterlowercase]

It's weird how these things go, how we have ultimately refined definitions to such an acute degree.
But old ghosts die hard, in the "things that make you go hmmmm" department,

why are most Bullmoose or Bullcap pipes so named?
Does anyone actually use this terminology?
Shouldn't they be called MooseRhodie or Rhodescap?
Most of them seem to have round shanks...

As for the Rhodesian,

I think in the old days ,

it was pretty much a squat bulldog in the eyes of many makers.
Loewe had a bent bulldog called a Rhodesian,

and also a squattie called a Rhodes.

http://chriskeene.com/37lc16
Comoy Rhodesians had diamond shanks,

http://pipepages.com/64com17s.htm
Orlik Rhodies too,

http://pipepages.com/orl15.htm
By the 60's, both GBD and Charatan were naming the shape as we know it today, maybe that's why the name stuck?

I dunno.
One of the more unusual Rhodies I've seen, is a very old design, the Comoy's Québec,

as eloquently revived by N.A.Roan:

http://www.apassionforpipes.com/neills-blog/2013/11/22/announcing-the-2014-passion-for-pipes-poy-the-quebec.html
I don't think the Rhodesian was formally named after Cecil Rhodes though, he didn't even smoke a pipe!

In this thread:

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/pipe-shape-history

...you'll see a pic,

but it ain't Cecil,

it's Ewart Grogan...
According to one of his private and confidential secretaries, Gordon Le Sueur, who wrote the book Cecil Rhodes - The Man and his Work, he preferred cigarettes.

-link to the relevant page in that book-
It's all very interesting how things have evolved, but in large part we still really don't know the full scoop on how most of our classics came to be named or why they're called what they're called.
I like this poem I found by indigosmoke,

'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;

Thou art thyself, though not a Rhodesian.

What's Rhodesian? it is nor shank, nor stem,

Nor bowl, nor finish, nor any other part

Belonging to a briar. O, be some other name!

What's in a name? that which we call a bulldog

By any other name would smoke as sweet;

Also this:

Those who believe the rhodesian has a round shank and the bulldog a diamond shank are correct. Because, they agree with me. Honestly, I really can't see any other line of demarkation between the two that make any sense at all. I know the whole bowl shape thing has been flogged like many dead horses, but when it comes down to it, the rhodsian is a round shanked bent bulldog and the bent bulldog is a diamond shank rhodesian.
-glpease
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/bulldog-or-rhodesian

It's good to actually see the whole big happy family:

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/calling-all-rhodesians-bulldogs-and-bull-moose
And this is a pretty good general overview of this unending topic...

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/history-of-pipe-shapes
::

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I'm not sure why Pipe Monk addressed me, but we agree. Shanks are how we differentiate nowadays. MLC is also correct, it didn't start out as being a shank thing, but since the market for pipes is now worldwide, we have to have something more simple to help us differentiate. It was a marketing thing in the beginning. I see it as they are all Bulldogs, but Rhodesians are a subcategory of the bulldog.

 

[misterlowercase]

Why do we call it a shank?
I thought a shank was something you use to stab dirty sqealin' rats with!

:mrgreen:

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Bulldogs were developed by 19th century prisoners in England. Actually, the term "shank" for use with sharpened spoons used as knives, comes from these prison bulldog pipes. Those crudely made implements made in prisons today is just evidence that criminals today don't take pride in their work like they used to. Tisk, tisk...

 

[misterlowercase]

Bulldogs were developed by 19th century prisoners in England. Actually, the term "shank" for use with sharpened spoons used as knives, comes from these prison bulldog pipes. Those crudely made implements made in prisons today is just evidence that criminals today don't take pride in their work like they used to. Tisk, tisk...

I do say old boy, it was the bloody French buggers who originated that adorable and ostentatious shape!

REO Speedwagon has nothing to do with anything,

except here's an advertisement!

:P

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Ha ha, yeh, I was just imaginationing, a tad. It's the bulldog's history and interconnectedness with the machine made industrial revolution that attracts me to them. The Art Deco industrial design nerd in me is stimulated. ::

 

[misterlowercase]

Ha ha, yeh, I was just imaginationing, a tad.

I was just yankin' yer chain!

The Art Deco industrial design nerd in me is stimulated.

I think that's a good analogy.

 

[disinformatique]

@cosmic I addressed my last comment at you because I was agreeing with you and also stating that not everyone is technical and mathematical when it comes to pipe shapes and engineering (like me, I am more of a visual person.)
So the bulldog was developed by prisoners? No wonder the criminal in me is attracted to any bulldog I come across for sale.
TL;DR - All Rhodies are bulldogs but not all bulldogs are rhodies :twisted:
Chris :puffpipe:

 

[mso489]

Shape names ARE squishy. And so are shapes. Most pipes have a little of two or more shapes in them, unless they are extremely traditional, and sometimes even then.

 

[okiescout]

Art Deco rocks in any medium. :wink:

 

[beerandbaccy]

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=shank&allowed_in_frame=0
On the word 'Shank'
shank (n.)
Old English sceanca "leg, shank, shinbone," specifically, the part of the leg from the knee to the ankle, from Proto-Germanic *skankon- (cognates: Middle Low German schenke, German schenkel "shank, leg"), perhaps literally "that which bends," from PIE root *skeng- "crooked" (cognates: Old Norse skakkr "wry, distorted," Greek skazein "to limp"). Shank's mare "one's own legs as a means of transportation" is attested from 1774 (shanks-naif)