What Exactly Are "Dark Virginas"?

[cosmicfolklore]

and then there is the whole idea of proprietary recipes.

At the manufacturing or processing level, I am not sure that anything is proprietary. You can look up the process of fire curing, flu curing, color curing, just about any of them. And, I really doubt that any of these blenders are actually doing any of this level of processing... sure blenders may be making a cavendish, and sauces may be proprietary, but the process is fairly transparent in the industry.
I think that McClellands may have had some hand in the processing at this level. As they were working directly with specific farmers to access the exact leaf they needed for their blends. But, I am not sure.

 

[anotherbob]

At the manufacturing or processing level, I am not sure that anything is proprietary. You can look up the process of fire curing, flu curing, color curing, just about any of them. And, I really doubt that any of these blenders are actually doing any of this level of processing... sure blenders may be making a cavendish, and sauces may be proprietary, but the process is fairly transparent in the industry.
I think that McClellands may have had some hand in the processing at this level. As they were working directly with specific farmers to access the exact leaf they needed for their blends. But, I am not sure.

I meant as far as what goes into this blend or that blend. What leafs they use. Which makes what it says on the tin that little bit more vague. Or in other words it's not just not knowing or whatever but intentionally vague too.
I bet many producers are aware on some bigger level about what they're buying.

 

[Ahi Ka]

I’ve grown two varieties of dark Virginia, or technically dark air cured Virginia.

The first, stag horn tastes more like a stout VaPer.

The second, goose creek red is like brown bogie.

Obviously these flavour comparisons aren’t perfect, but just to give a loose idea.

As for the mouth feel and combustion, they are similar to burley, but not in flavour. This however could be due to the curing process rather than the leaf.

As for blending descriptions, I agree that it generally refers to stoved tobacco, and probably stuff on the dark stone fruit side of the spectrum

 

[shanez]

I was under the impression red, orange, lemon, etc could be made from the same plant though not necessarily the same location of the plant. No?

Or would seed be a better word than plant?

 

[Ahi Ka]

I was under the impression red, orange, lemon, etc could be made from the same plant though not necessarily the same location of the plant. No?

Or would seed be a better word than plant?

Plant is a good term. I was under the same impression, much like different leaf for cigars are sourced from different parts of the same plant.

However, I would assume there are bright leaf varieties which are better suited for producing the flavours which are associated with red Virginia blends etc.

Cosmic nailed it when he attributed a lot of confusion stemming to how the same terms are applied differently by different players in the process.

I’ve come across the same difficulty in trying to find out what variety is “mahogany burley”. I think Russ talked about this in regards to edgeworth, but when I’ve talked to growers they haven’t heard that term used and wondered if I meant “red burley tips”.

 

[rmbittner]

Right or wrong, I equate “dark Virginias” with African-grown leaf, which, to me, has a darker, deeper, more molasses-like flavor. (But that can result from stoving…) It’s the kind of leaf I associate with European blenders, and I typically taste it in blends, not straight VA flakes like FVF, for example, or Dunhill/Peterson Flake. (Of course, that’s not based on any knowledge beyond my own perceptions.)

 

[kola]

Are there any "regulations" as to what they are called? black, white, red, polka dots, etc . Pick pretty and interesting names and throw it on a label. And don't forget a catchy name for the blend and some cool tin-art as well. "All Natural flavors."

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I was under the impression red, orange, lemon, etc could be made from the same plant though not necessarily the same location of the plant. No?

Getting the information for color curing was very difficult for me, when I was researching how to make reds. It was difficult because the tobacco manufacturers have a totally different set of jargon than we in the pipe world use. Asking them "how do I make a red Virginia" was getting me no responses. There is no such thing as a red Virginia. In fact, "Virginia" was totally the wrong word. Bright leaf and color curing were what I was looking for.

And, I was directed towards different seed stock for various colored leaf. If it is possible to turn VAGOLD25 seed stock red, I have had no luck finding information on that. I was instead sent to lists of seedstock that tended to take the color cure better. There are literally hundreds of different bright leaf varietals.

 

[fireground_piper]

Are there any "regulations" as to what they are called? black, white, red, polka dots, etc . Pick pretty and interesting names and throw it on a label. And don't forget a catchy name for the blend and some cool tin-art as well. "All Natural flavors."

There are official usda grades for raw product:

https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Flue-Cured_Tobacco_U.S._Types_11%2C_12%2C_13%2C_14%2C_%26_Foreign_Type_92%5B1%5D.pdf

 

[shanez]

@cosmicfolklore In terms of manufacture, is it safe to say that, curing process (i.e. flue cured) held equal, sugar and moisture content of the leave has a significant impact on the color? Or is it more so the maturity of the plant at harvest? Or something else entirely?

I know from cigars the amount of time in direct sunlight while growing affects what the final product will be, which is the whole purpose of shade leaf. Where on the plant the leaf is harvested from also affects the final product as upper leaves shade lower leaves to a degree which is used in the ligero grading selection for cigars and does really affect the nicotine in the leaf based on my personal experience.

 

[chilllucky]

Taking soil/fertilizer out of the equation: varietal will determine average sugar content of the plant. Stalk position will drive final sugar content of individual leaves. Sugar content, plus knowing what you are doing, will determine color.

It's a simplification to say so, but it's basically carmelization. So, amount of sugar present in the leaf will determine what color you _could_ get to, if everything goes according to plan in the cure.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

A lot impacts the leaf. For a sweeter leaf you want poor soul quality with a specific schedule of fertilizers. Lower leaf is always sweeter, but higher leaves have more flavor and nicotine.
Reds are cured and then color cured which is similar to how cigar leaf is fermented. You can speed this up with a kiln. I just use my flu cure shed.

Top leaves are not the leaves longest on the plant. Ligero are the leaves that form after the plant has reached flowering maturity. For pipe tobacco, really the bottom leaves are all that is valued.

I could go on and on, but basically, ever stage affects quality.

 

[shanez]

So back to the original question, are "dark VAs" air cured, flue cured beyond red, or something else entirely?

Part of the difficulty in understanding is that old terminology, say from a book published around 1900, doesn't always agree with modern terminology.

 

[crashthegrey]

At the manufacturing or processing level, I am not sure that anything is proprietary. You can look up the process of fire curing, flu curing, color curing, just about any of them. And, I really doubt that any of these blenders are actually doing any of this level of processing... sure blenders may be making a cavendish, and sauces may be proprietary, but the process is fairly transparent in the industry.
I think that McClellands may have had some hand in the processing at this level. As they were working directly with specific farmers to access the exact leaf they needed for their blends. But, I am not sure.

Yes, Mike laid out his purpose built stoving box for me. He processed nearly as much as he blended.

 

[chilllucky]

So back to the original question, are "dark VAs" air cured, flue cured beyond red, or something else entirely?

Part of the difficulty in understanding is that old terminology, say from a book published around 1900, doesn't always agree with modern terminology.

Historial uses of language certainly present problems, but most of the confusion is due to the fact that these were totally silo'd concerns.

In the auction days, American farmers tried to produce the best grades they could of desirable varietals so they could get the most money for their crop. The grades were worked out between growers, buyers, and the USDA, acting as referee.

What was desirable was mostly a matter of demand, and even in "the golden age of pipe smoking" this was still ultimately 90%+ cigarette tobacco bought in lots by agents.

So the growers developed their own language for the methods and characteristics that led to them getting the highest grades/most profit. The buyers, warehouses, and agents developed their own descriptions to pass that information along to manufacturers and get the most reward for their work. The blenders (again, majority cigarette makers who also happened to produce some pipe tobacco) made up their own terminology to describe the further processing they did. Then came copy writers and advertisers.

The farmers certainly didn't care what the manufacturers called their leaf after it was paid for, so we end up with a mish mosh of redundant or similar terms describing different qualities.