UK Market Germain's Availability?

[smudgersmissingleg]

Do you reckon it is Gawith keeping an eye on the UK market or just less ridiculous hoarding in the UK?

I have been buying SG from Germany for ages, and more recently GH as well as SG from another European market and there were never stocking issues. Denmark, Italy, France and Spain also seem well stocked in Gawith. Switzerland is very well stocked too.
My guess is the American, or US market is just far more greedy.

I think Gawith have a bigger operation and put out more product but it is still bs that Germain's don't do more to keep their home market adequately stocked.
It'd be like Cornell and Diehl tobacco not being available in the States while at the same time they're sending stuff abroad. I can't imagine that.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

or just less ridiculous hoarding in the UK?

Or maybe Europeans are more... miserly... no, not the right word... parsimonious... no... cheeseparing... avaricious? A nicer way to say cheapskate.

 

[pauls456]

Well I was wrong. I just spoke with an insider, and it has nothing to do with price. Its just a function of Germains being a small company that has no interest in scaling up to meet demand.

 

[karam]

When the first covid lockdown was announced in Greece most shops emptied like everywhere else. I went to my butcher, who runs a very honest operation with great quality meat, to get some meat. I asked for a bit more than a week’s worth and he refused, said he’s selling no more than 2kg to all customers per day. I respected him more for it. I struggle to believe that people sitting on piles and piles of tobacco NEED to get 3kg of StJ Flake when it drops, bit selfish isn’t it? Especially considering the scarcity.

 

[smudgersmissingleg]

Or maybe Europeans are more... miserly... no, not the right word... parsimonious... no... cheeseparing... avaricious? A nicer way to say cheapskate.

Don't forget that we in England can pay double what you do in some States.

 

[mingc]

Well I was wrong. I just spoke with an insider, and it has nothing to do with price. Its just a function of Germains being a small company that has no interest in scaling up to meet demand.

I admire that attitude. Good for them.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Its just a function of Germains being a small company that has no interest in scaling up to meet demand.

^this is what keeps them great. Turning to mass production cheapens your product, lowers your value in the eyes of consumers, and lowers the quality for your product. It is true from every way you want to look at it.
If Germains was able to meet demand and keep products on the shelf all the time, who would give a fuck about them. I have never in my life seen someone brag about getting a tin of Sutliff... in fact, spending days upon end in a smoking lounge, I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually buy one of their tins. I have seen garbage cans overflowing with freebie samples they've given away at pipe shows. But, this may be for another reason. Don't be like Sutliuff, be more like Germains.

 

[greeneyes]

Not a bashing comment at all but man they buy a lot of tobacco. A fella form another forum for cigars commented about a recent trip to cuba (pre/during Covid I cant recall). He said there were many fellas in suits that were surrounded by boxes and basically 'day trading' cigars. Not a single one of them were smoking.

Indeed. I'm friends with a Chinese fellow and I had to ask him to buy me a packet of the 1820 Flake to try as no UK retailer would ship to USA. My friend immediately texted an order to GQ on Instagram and got a huge order of Germain's shipped to him in China just by chatting with the GQ rep. No exaggerating--he showed me the screenshots. Massive amounts of UK tobacco are being sent to Asia.

 

[smudgersmissingleg]

Well I was wrong. I just spoke with an insider, and it has nothing to do with price. Its just a function of Germains being a small company that has no interest in scaling up to meet demand.

I'm glad that there's only 1 of their blends that I can't do without. I adore Brown Flake but some of the recent stock (sold out immediately) were the 500g bags which at UK prices I just couldn't afford. I like some of their other blends as well like Medium Flake and Cavendish & Virginia.
Luckily, many of my favourites are produced by Samuel Gawith & Gawith Hoggarth and they keep everything well stocked this side of the pond.

 

[karam]

^this is what keeps them great. Turning to mass production cheapens your product, lowers your value in the eyes of consumers, and lowers the quality for your product. It is true from every way you want to look at it.

I love Gawith stuff, for me they are unique and irreplaceable, but then again a big operation like MacBaren manages to put out ample quantities of stellar blends, perfectly cut flakes etc without an issue. Apples and oranges sure but my point is that mass production does not need to mean worse quality.

 

[fireground_piper]

I would have to imagine Germain or any other manufacturer doesn’t play games with bidding costs to importers. That would lead to bad faith relationships with their vendors if someone could buy out an order from someone else by offering to pay more.

Whether someone pays $20 for a tin or $200 a tin in their marketplace, I’d have to believe germain doesn’t see a different purchase price from their vendor. That would just Brew toxicity.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I love Gawith stuff, for me they are unique and irreplaceable, but then again a big operation like MacBaren manages to put out ample quantities of stellar blends, perfectly cut flakes etc without an issue. Apples and oranges sure but my point is that mass production does not need to mean worse quality.

I like Gawith's stuff. But, I don't think of them as consistent by any means. From tin to tin bulk to bulk their stuff can range in how much topping is added or cross contaminated all the time for me. But, I like it. It's still unique and ballsy, with their nicotine.

MacBarens, the McDonalds of the pipe tobacco world. Good stuff, but an example of mass produced stuff. Go into any US town across the country and the Big Macs are all the same. but, Germains just wants to keep it's stuff handmade, like McClellands was doing, with one guy (or family) handling the work themselves. maybe it can be mass produced and not loose much, but labor is not always about the money, sometimes it's all about the work. The work they love.
I'm that way. I could easily have my designs mass produced for less, cranking them out of china, stuff in every jewelry store across the land. It's been offered to me, but fuck that. If I wanted to just be a businessman, and money was the most important part, I wouldn't have gone into any of the stuff I do. I make good money doing what I do, and as long as I wake up looking forward to doing what I do, I will continue. I respect the hell out of how McClellands died. That is how to run a business in a way that shows how much love goes into every tin. MacBarens with the corporate board rooms, CEOs of this and that, I can't love something like that. I like some of their stuff, but it is just as easy to hate them.
Fuck Sutliff and their replacing the boards with cigarette people.

 

[karam]

I would think of MacBaren as offering from McDonalds to cordon bleu

 

[mingc]

MacBarens, the McDonalds of the pipe tobacco world.

It isn't. it's still family owned.

In the pipe tobacco world, no one is bigger than big tobacco, Altria, which sells, besides Marlboro, Prince Albert, Carter Hall and Middleton.

After Altria, maybe STG is the biggest? It's publicly traded and much bigger with thousands of employees and over $1 billion in sales.

Dun & Bradstreet is a good place to look for company info: https://www.dnb.com/. Mac Baren's has 150 employees in Svendborg. KK has 51 employees. GH has 47. Germain's doesn't even pop up in a search.

 

[Jimmy_Jack]

Is MacB really that equivalent? I had no idea.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

It isn't. it's still family owned.

In the pipe tobacco world, no one is bigger than big tobacco, Altria, which sells, besides Marlboro, Prince Albert, Carter Hall and Middleton.

After Altria, maybe STG is the biggest? It's publicly traded and much bigger with thousands of employees and over $1 billion in sales.

Dun & Bradstreet is a good place to look for company info: https://www.dnb.com/. Mac Baren's has 150 employees in Svendborg. KK has 51 employees. GH has 47. Germain's doesn't even pop up in a search.

My bad, but it‘s weird to think that a family run business owns Sutliff which is owned by a corporation.
But, whatever the business structure, it’s not the ma and pa run type that Germains is.
Maybe Europe has different legal structures that protect ma and pas, whereas in America you have to incorporate to protect the business from the products.

 

[mingc]

My bad, but it‘s weird to think that a family run business owns Sutliff which is owned by a corporation.
But, whatever the business structure, it’s not the ma and pa run type that Germains is.
Maybe Europe has different legal structures that protect ma and pas, whereas in America you have to incorporate to protect the business from the products.

There's nothing that prevents a family owned business from becoming a corporation. All it means is that the corporation has a few shareholders who are related to each other.

Corporations are an European invention and created by laws. The earliest modern corporations were part of the European colonial enterprise and the Atlantic slave trade: the Dutch East India Company; the English South Seas Company; the Hudson Bay Company; etc. By law, a corporation can own property and enter into contracts, as if it is a human adult. The law also shields company shareholders from liability for the corporation's debts. Thus, all that a shareholder risks is the money he or she paid the company for their shares. If a corporation pollutes your land or cheats you out of money, or simply doesn't pay you for the services or goods you sold to the corporation, in general, you cannot get relief from the shareholders, only the corporation itself. That limited liability is the main reason people set up corporations in the US, Europe, and even China.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

There's nothing that prevents a family owned business from becoming a corporation. All it means is that the corporation has a few shareholders who are related to each other.

Corporations are an European invention and created by laws. The earliest modern corporations were part of the European colonial enterprise and the Atlantic slave trade: the Dutch East India Company; the English South Seas Company; the Hudson Bay Company; etc. By law, a corporation can own property and enter into contracts, as if it is a human adult. The law also shields company shareholders from liability for the corporation's debts. Thus, all that a shareholder risks is the money he or she paid the company for their shares. If a corporation pollutes your land or cheats you out of money, or simply doesn't pay you for the services or goods you sold to the corporation, in general, you cannot get relief from the shareholders, only the corporation itself. That limited liability is the main reason people set up corporations in the US, Europe, and even China.

The problem with a corporation is that it becomes legally beholden to shareholders. They tend to make decision that are merely profit oriented, setting aside materials and process in favor of squeezing more money Out of a product. Being family run is better, but still if shareholders become discontent with profits and returns, they can overthrow a CEO and board. This happened to Paul Creasy as Sutliff‘s board was replaced with Big Cig executives.

 

[mingc]

The problem with a corporation is that it becomes legally beholden to shareholders. They tend to make decision that are merely profit oriented, setting aside materials and process in favor of squeezing more money Out of a product. Being family run is better, but still if shareholders become discontent with profits and returns, they can overthrow a CEO and board. This happened to Paul Creasy as Sutliff‘s board was replaced with Big Cig executives.

CEOs and boards have legal fiduciary duties of loyalty to the owners. And shareholders are legally beholden to their majority. It is by design.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

CEOs and boards have legal fiduciary duties of loyalty to its owners. And shareholders are legally beholden to their majority. It is by design.

Exactly, and on a smaller scale a ma and pa can focus on quality on a more personal level. For such a small industry it keeps them in the luxury range.
Wealth and incorporating is not always the goal of a business. Sometimes it’s the pride and happiness the work brings.
I don’t begrudge Germains or McClellands for the way they ran/run their businesses. Everyone defines success differently.