U.S. Department of Defense Regulations on Tobacco Sales Get Tough

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mso489

Preferred Member
Feb 21, 2013
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Women before the 1920's weren't supposed to smoke at all, at least never in public, which resulted in the advertisement headline in magazines showing a man smoking and a woman nearby saying, "Blow some smoke my way." Priming the interest in smoking for women. I've seen a movie or two, long after the Surgeon General's Report on Smoking, that played smoking as a emblem of bonding and rebellion for women.

Reveille aboard ship in the Navy included the line, "The smoking lamp is lit in all authorized spaces."

Such is life.
 
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NEmery

New member
Dec 31, 2019
35
87
Beaufort, SC
DoD restricted the sale of tobacco to persons under 21 at the same time it was put into law elsewhere. DoD follows federal law. the changes to the new order are for Vaping. I was Active Duty (USMC 1996-2006) and still work on a Marine base and its unfathomable the number of young Marines that are constantly Vaping. They are supposed to use the designated 'Smoke Pits' that the Smokers use, but you still see them doing it all over the place and nobody seems to say anything.
 

pappymac

Preferred Member
Feb 26, 2015
2,092
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I love it when someone brings up the "old enough to fight and die, old enough to smoke" canard. The military knows kids better than most. The fully understand children are not capable, as a rule, of making good decisions which is why they are provided full time sitters and live in dorms (barracks) until they prove, individually, they deserve some say in the decision making. Civilian kids are simply granted certain privedges at certain ages. In the military, one earns the ability to make decisions The military understands the basic immaturity of late teens and early twenties types. Granted, ages of majority are certainly arbitrary but, limits are for the lowest common denominator. More mature members earn freedoms faster than their less bright/tractable peers. That is the intention anyway.

The military easily and severely restricts smoking with regard to age, times, locations, etc. It has been that way for years. Somebody with more stripes and experience determined when one could smoke and where. It was totally prohibited the first three weeks of basic training in my time. And then the DI taught us how to smoke and not litter. I remember "field striping" fondly. Policing smoking areas wasn't a lot of fun either. Society tolerates slovenly behavior. The military? Not so much.

They, the military leadership want to reduce physical damage to property as such is expensive. The same as civilian building supers, landlords and others. Limiting the inconvenience to non-smokers is something the military finds useful and easy to implement. Friday Night Smokers in the NCO Club are mostly relegated to history and the memories of "the good old days." Just as the military was forced to lead the fight to integrate society, work forces, neighborhoods and schools it may be the logical leader to relegating smoking with regard to age appropriateness and such. By it's nature the military commitment to "control" lends itself to social restructuring. It is what they do best after all. Well, along with the noble goals of "killing others and breaking stuff."

Civilian and military smoking is generally perceived as "anti-social" behavior. Deal with it guys! We've reverted back to pre-WWI days with regard to tolerance in smoking. Well, can't smoke in the gaming halls and bars these days. That's a bit more severe than the so-called "good ol' days."
Warren, I will agree with some of what you say, but "The fully understand children are not capable, as a rule, of making good decisions which is why they are provided full time sitters and live in dorms (barracks) until they prove, individually, they deserve some say in the decision making. Civilian kids are simply granted certain privedges at certain ages. In the military, one earns the ability to make decisions" I'm going to disagree with.

The U.S. Coast Guard doesn't hesitate to give a 19-year old control of a rescue vessel going out in a storm to rescue idiot adults who thought it would be a good idea to go boating.

The Army and Marines don't hesitate to put young corporals and sergeants - usually under the age of 20 - in position of authority in combat zones either.

If these "children" were not capable of making good decisions, they would not place them in positions of authority where lives are at stakes.
 
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mso489

Preferred Member
Feb 21, 2013
29,583
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Good point about the military being deeply involved in the bringing up of young adults. The experience of Navy boot camp has provided a lifetime of interesting speculation on what was intended. I was a few years older than the average recruit, though there were several of us "older" guys. When the training touched on sex and religion, the doctrine was as muddled and sometimes misguided as it is with most actual parents, but that is understandable. I served as the company "education officer," which to my 22 year old brain meant standing up at the end of the day and doing a class on The Blue Jacket's Manual to help my fellow recruits with the written exam. Some weren't readers, literate all, but some not inclined to study, so I figured I could get some information to them aloud. Because there was no other entertainment, nearly the whole company settled in around me and let me bellow away (scrawny little guy with a great big voice). Then I really got subversive in my own small way and decided to mind game the mind gaming institution. When they let us loose for our first liberty (day off) in dress uniform, I exercised the option of staying in the barracks and drilling the stay-at-homes on the Manual, one half the group each day of the weekend. For graduation day, the guys got me a fancy harmonica engraved with my name. The company commander (Navy drill instructor) looked deeply mystified since to him I had been totally low-profile, another tactical move that worked well for me, the stealth recruit. And, I'd been reading The Blue Jackets Manual since junior high, for the nautical lore.
 
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NEmery

New member
Dec 31, 2019
35
87
Beaufort, SC
The U.S. Coast Guard doesn't hesitate to give a 19-year old control of a rescue vessel going out in a storm to rescue idiot adults who thought it would be a good idea to go boating.

The Army and Marines don't hesitate to put young corporals and sergeants - usually under the age of 20 - in position of authority in combat zones either.

The USCG does not give a Coast Guardsman that has not been rated the helm of a vessel. While there are non rated people aboard, they are not in control of the vessel.

As for the USMC there are very few Cpl and Sgt in the USMC that are under 20. Seeing as they come in at 18 and PVT to PFC is 6 months, PFC to LCPL I Believe is another 6 months (Maybe a year), then a year as a LCPL before being ELIGIBLE for promotion to Cpl, and another year for Sgt. The exceptions are Meritorious promotions.

I served my 10 years and now many years later still work alongside Young Marines (and worked for the USCG for 10 years from 2006-2016), and I can tell you without a doubt that both services basically babysit the younger enlisted folk until they are ready to venture out a little bit. It is for good reason, too. I know that when I was a young Marine I would have gotten into a ton of trouble without the proper leadership and structure.
 

warren

Preferred Member
Sep 13, 2013
7,855
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"In the military, one earns the ability to make decisions "

So, you do, in fact, agree with my statement you disagree with.

"If these "children" were not capable of making good decisions, they would not place them in positions of authority where lives are at stakes."

The kids earn the right by demonstrating they are capable of making good decisions, They are not, at a certain age or stage of enlistment, simply awarded decision making powers. They earn the ability through testing and evaluations.

The services constantly evaluate the abilities of their employees. True mistakes are made and incompetents slip through. But the goal, an admirable one, is to equip employees with the skills to advance and discharge those who do not meet the required levels of competence.
 

pappymac

Preferred Member
Feb 26, 2015
2,092
539
The USCG does not give a Coast Guardsman that has not been rated the helm of a vessel. While there are non rated people aboard, they are not in control of the vessel.

As for the USMC there are very few Cpl and Sgt in the USMC that are under 20. Seeing as they come in at 18 and PVT to PFC is 6 months, PFC to LCPL I Believe is another 6 months (Maybe a year), then a year as a LCPL before being ELIGIBLE for promotion to Cpl, and another year for Sgt. The exceptions are Meritorious promotions.

I served my 10 years and now many years later still work alongside Young Marines (and worked for the USCG for 10 years from 2006-2016), and I can tell you without a doubt that both services basically babysit the younger enlisted folk until they are ready to venture out a little bit. It is for good reason, too. I know that when I was a young Marine I would have gotten into a ton of trouble without the proper leadership and structure.
Didn't say they did. I said the Coast Guard doesn't hesitate to give a 19-year old control of a small boat. I served 21 years (1972-1993) and back then you could easily make PO3 in 18 months. You came out of basic as an E-2 and 6 months later could get a promotion to E-3. After 6 months as an E-3 you could take the servicewide exam for E-4. If you went straight to school from basic you would graduate from the school as a Petty Officer (E-4). Most Course lengths were about one to two years back then. Of course, I retired back in 1993 so things may have changed since then.
 

NEmery

New member
Dec 31, 2019
35
87
Beaufort, SC
Didn't say they did. I said the Coast Guard doesn't hesitate to give a 19-year old control of a small boat. I served 21 years (1972-1993) and back then you could easily make PO3 in 18 months. You came out of basic as an E-2 and 6 months later could get a promotion to E-3. After 6 months as an E-3 you could take the servicewide exam for E-4. If you went straight to school from basic you would graduate from the school as a Petty Officer (E-4). Most Course lengths were about one to two years back then. Of course, I retired back in 1993 so things may have changed since then.
yeah, things may have changed a little. I know the Corps has changed DRASTICALLY since the 90's. HAHAHa. I was at ARSC Elizabeth City (Now ALC) for 10 years. The young Coasties come in at 18 and by the time they are done with school with a Rating they are typically already 20 years old, older than that if they went to swimmer school. Do they give a 3rd Class a small boat? Seems like there was always a 1st Class or a Chief with them when I saw them, but I didn't spend too much time over at the Small Boast Station, as we dealt with their Aircraft.
 
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mso489

Preferred Member
Feb 21, 2013
29,583
9,338
The structure of military life is both beneficial in terms of giving you goals and means of advancing, but limiting in other ways. When I got out, I was used to living out of a locker half the size of a high school hall locker. It took me slow incremental steps to expand my personal space, when many of my civilian friends had bought houses and started families. I had to learn to be civilian in that way; it was slow going. It didn't help that my career plans A and B had collapsed in terms of job availability, but GI Bill helped me make adaptations and transition.
 

Akousticplyr

Preferred Member
Oct 12, 2019
515
2,386
Florida Panhandle
There was an incoming freshman orientation at a large college in 1945 or 1946. That college used to make all freshmen wear some kind of a beanie hat or something dumb like that, for whatever reason (hazing, tradition, whatever.)

The speaker said they all had to wear the beanie.

In the back of the room -obviously full of combat vets- a gruff voice said, “Like hell we are.”

‘The beanies were never worn again.

If you’re an 18 year old in uniform, you’re an adult.
 

anotherbob

Preferred Member
That's the amazing thing. Alcohol has to be responsible for as many deaths and absolutley more property damage. Crashed cars, guard rails, insurance claims, shootings, wife beatings, theft, assaults of various types. Its amazing that "they" haven't gone after alchohol.. the Teflon drug.
it's because it's been part of the human experience for ever and with little break or pause. It's normal to us. Though if you never experienced anyone on any drugs I think alcohol might really freak you out. That guy can't even walk... Or tie his shoes or speak coherently. Wait withdraw can kill you and not because of some other underlying condition? But we've seen the whole range of peoples reactions and it's normal to us.
 

pappymac

Preferred Member
Feb 26, 2015
2,092
539
yeah, things may have changed a little. I know the Corps has changed DRASTICALLY since the 90's. HAHAHa. I was at ARSC Elizabeth City (Now ALC) for 10 years. The young Coasties come in at 18 and by the time they are done with school with a Rating they are typically already 20 years old, older than that if they went to swimmer school. Do they give a 3rd Class a small boat? Seems like there was always a 1st Class or a Chief with them when I saw them, but I didn't spend too much time over at the Small Boast Station, as we dealt with their Aircraft.
Yea, the aviation schools and a few others were definitely more than a year old. The Boatswain Mate school I think was actually less than a year as were some of the administrative rates like Yeoman. Small boats are those under 44 -feet in length - ones like the 32s and 41s aluminum hulled patrol boats. Once the area familiarization check list, a 3rd class could be placed on the boat crew as a coxswain. Of course, that also depended on the unit commander, I spent time at a couple of units where all the coxswains were BM2 or above. Chiefs and 1st class seldom run boats that small because the higher up the food chain you go, the more administrative you become.

The old 44 and 52-foot motor lifeboats were different in that the boat crews had to first go through the MLB school at Cape Disappointment, Wa. and I think they had to be at least an E-5 to get in that school.
 
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