Triple Negative

[lawdawg]

There's a linguist at North Carolina State U. who makes a strong case that a lot of regional language dialects, including double (and more than double) negatives, are distinct language systems that have their own rules. But once you learn them, you know exactly what the people are saying. So in terms of standard English, they are incorrect, but for human communication within their communities they are exacting and precise as any. You can squabble about this; some groups are more effectively communicative than others. But the basic point, I think, is sound. He does great presentations with videos including speech by Outer Banks residents who are said to still have the marks of Elizabethan English in their speech, as well as various rural and/or minority communities. For those who take pride in their cultivated standard English, this may be annoying, but there is truth in it.

This is certainly the case. Sometimes it seems that the purpose of double (and more) negatives is to emphasize the original negative. For example, "He don't got none at all, no he don't." That would just be emphasizing that he most certainly does not have any. It's not that he just doesn't have any. He definitely doesn't have any.

It's still fun to joke around about though

 

[cosmicfolklore]

There's a linguist at North Carolina State U. who makes a strong case that a lot of regional language dialects, including double (and more than double) negatives, are distinct language systems that have their own rules. But once you learn them, you know exactly what the people are saying. So in terms of standard English, they are incorrect, but for human communication within their communities they are exacting and precise as any. You can squabble about this; some groups are more effectively communicative than others. But the basic point, I think, is sound. He does great presentations with videos including speech by Outer Banks residents who are said to still have the marks of Elizabethan English in their speech, as well as various rural and/or minority communities. For those who take pride in their cultivated standard English, this may be annoying, but there is truth in it.

I've seen programs about the many different Southern dialects. In Alabama, we have three main ones. I am the most familiar with the Central Alabama one, which is more like the antebellum period. But, all, are more Elizabethan than the current Hollywood, midwestern. If you watch old movies, notice how even just in the 70 years that we've had speakies, the American dialect has changed.

Also, if you pay attention the accent that we actually hear (not the racist pigeon English of old Westerns) from Native Americans is a slight exaggeration of the differences between current Great Britain English and American English. I am pretty sure that the English dialect as a whole was affected by all of the different types of English speakers around us.

I tend to quickly pick up the accent of whomever I am communicating with out of some strange habit. My wife notices that when I am talking on the phone.

Language is a strange thing.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Oh, and I say this, not out of some pretentious Southern pride for my fellow morons down here, but I don't hear people use double or triple negatives down here. That doesn't mean they don't say stupid things... but, a lot of times we get blamed for Mississipeans.

 

[That Guy]

Oh, and I say this, not out of some pretentious Southern pride for my fellow morons down here, but I don't hear people use double or triple negatives down here. That doesn't mean they don't say stupid things... but, a lot of times we get blamed for Mississipeans.

 

[mso489]

I live in the South, but no Southerner has ever taken me for a native of the South, but I have adapted my language mostly to be better understood. When I talk to someone I don't know in Chicago and announce that I was born in that area, they have said, "With that Southern accent?" Onboard ship in the Navy, I had a fellow radioman who was from Rome, Georgia, who did an excellent imitation of Northern speech, with the fast cadence and hitting the consonants hard. It was a highly perfected imitation that illustrated that just because I was used to it, it didn't mean that I didn't have an accent. When I got back from the Navy, to school in the South, I found I had to order my breakfast more slowly to not have to repeat myself. I should point out that I married into an extended Southern family, and that changes your perspective a lot. I was pecul-ya to them, but they were eventually quite accepting. The academic culture in the South, not to mention my late wife's vast reading, "deep fried" the notion that the region is unintelligent.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Actually, the strangest accents I have ever heard in the South is central Florida backwoods. I had car trouble outside of Ocala, and I felt like I was in another country. I kept asking them to repeat. They seemed to understand me, but I had no idea what they were saying. It was surreal.

There are some dialects of New Orleans that are fantastic to hear as well. Like New Jersey meets the Beverly Hillbillies.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I live in the South, but no Southerner has ever taken me for a native of the South, but I have adapted my language mostly to be better understood. When I talk to someone I don't know in Chicago and announce that I was born in that area, they have said, "With that Southern accent?" Onboard ship in the Navy, I had a fellow radioman who was from Rome, Georgia, who did an excellent imitation of Northern speech, with the fast cadence and hitting the consonants hard. It was a highly perfected imitation that illustrated that just because I was used to it, it didn't mean that I didn't have an accent. When I got back from the Navy, to school in the South, I found I had to order my breakfast more slowly to not have to repeat myself. I should point out that I married into an extended Southern family, and that changes your perspective a lot. I was pecul-ya to them, but they were eventually quite accepting.

When in the colder climes of the North, I get asked if my accent is Californian a lot.

 

[peregrinus]

… but I don't hear no people use double or none triple negatives neither down here.

Fixed it for you.

 

[cfreud]

OK, I admit it. I am turning into Grumpy Old Man yelling at kids to "Get off my lawn." Nonetheless, I was raised by grammar Nazis, who drowned everything I wrote in red ink as a kid. Double (or triple) negatives, split infinitives and noun-verb agreement (San Francisco lost their game Sunday night to the Packers? No, San Francisco lost its (and not It's) game to Green Bay) are all part of the general decline of English.

This is one of those things where the world is changing, but I will not. I will die on this hill of proper grammar (though I doubt my life will be threatened.)

 

[peregrinus]

South is central Florida backwoods.

I have some cousins in this area.
When we talked I first had to figure out what it was they were saying (the words) and then try to understand what the hell the were trying to say (the meaning).
It was entertaining for them, I suspect they lay it on extra thick when talking to an outsider, particularly to a yankee.

 

[lawdawg]

If you watch old movies, notice how even just in the 70 years that we've had speakies, the American dialect has changed.

Hollywood actors were just talking in that old-timey accent on purpose. For the most part, they were using the "Mid-Atlantic Dialect" which is pretty much an upper-crust East Coast put-on that became popular in the media generally, including film acting, broadcast journalism, and even politics. There's old audio of John Kerry back in the day pronouncing "can't" as "cont" like an Englishman.

I also would see movies from the 40's and 50's and think people actually used to talk like that. That's what I thought until I stumbled upon the John Kerry thing a year or two ago.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

OK, I admit it. I am turning into Grumpy Old Man yelling at kids to "Get off my lawn." Nonetheless, I was raised by grammar Nazis, who drowned everything I wrote in red ink as a kid. Double (or triple) negatives, split infinitives and noun-verb agreement (San Francisco lost their game Sunday night to the Packers? No, San Francisco lost its (and not It's) game to Green Bay) are all part of the general decline of English.

This is one of those things where the world is changing, but I will not. I will die on this hill of proper grammar (though I doubt my life will be threatened.)

No, you are correct in being diligent. Acceptance of any slack leads to terrible consequences. If we allow people to trash the language, next we will just be OK with men going into nice restaurants with tshirts and shorts. They'll be legions of men who don't even own neckties. Then they'll be seen at Walmart in their PJs. Then next thing you know, we will set silently by while grown ass men smoke fucking corncob pipes like homeless men.
Put a stop to the madness. Hipster scumbags!!

 

[lawdawg]

OK, I admit it. I am turning into Grumpy Old Man yelling at kids to "Get off my lawn." Nonetheless, I was raised by grammar Nazis, who drowned everything I wrote in red ink as a kid. Double (or triple) negatives, split infinitives and noun-verb agreement (San Francisco lost their game Sunday night to the Packers? No, San Francisco lost its (and not It's) game to Green Bay) are all part of the general decline of English.

This is one of those things where the world is changing, but I will not. I will die on this hill of proper grammar (though I doubt my life will be threatened.)

The written word is one thing, but spoken language is another. Dialects and pidgins do exist, and we must take them into account, especially if we care about accuracy and completeness

 

[lawdawg]

No, you are correct in being diligent. Acceptance of any slack leads to terrible consequences. If we allow people to trash the language, next we will just be OK with men going into nice restaurants with tshirts and shorts. They'll be legions of men who don't even own neckties. Then they'll be seen at Walmart in their PJs. Then next thing you know, we will set silently by while grown ass men smoke fucking corncob pipes like homeless men.
Put a stop to the madness. Hipster scumbags!!

EXACTLY.

Now I'm just going to ignore that there last part 'bout the corncob

 

[cfreud]

As for dialects, my only experience with the South is an annual golf safari to Myrtle Beach. Having grown up in California and lived in Colorado, South Carolina is pretty much a foreign country to me, even though I'd bet Myrtle Beach isn't "true South." I confess, there have been times I have had no clue what the people are saying when I golf with them there. I just nod my head and affirm my support for whatever college football team is their favorite.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

For the most part, they were using the "Mid-Atlantic Dialect"

I am very familiar with Mid-Atlantis, but even on old Little Rascal episodes, note the dialect. Not just Cary Grant and his soft arching R's, which is very close to the Central Alabama dialect. But, everybody in old movies, not just a few stars. Especially note how children in old movies and shows talk. It's interesting stuff.
Even when I watch teens on old MTV clips talk from the 80's... it sounds nothing like what you would hear today.
Language and dialects change fast, probably faster nowadays, with technology.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

EXACTLY.

Now I'm just going to ignore that there last part 'bout the corncob

Hipster!!!

 

[lawdawg]

I am very familiar with Mid-Atlantis, but even on old Little Rascal episodes, note the dialect. Not just Cary Grant and his soft arching R's, which is very close to the Central Alabama dialect. But, everybody in old movies, not just a few stars. Especially note how children in old movies and shows talk. It's interesting stuff.
Even when I watch teens on old MTV clips talk from the 80's... it sounds nothing like what you would hear today.
Language and dialects change fast, probably faster nowadays, with technology.

Points well-taken. I just want to be sure people don't do what I did and watch Casablanca and come away with the idea that's how people actually talked back then.

 

[That Guy]

I think "the South" I'm talking about is a different south than the one that is being mentioned by other members here lol Jackson Mississippi being one of the top five s*** hole places to live in the US most places you're going to need a translator like this

 

[pepesdad1]

I think "the South" I'm talking about is a different south than the one that is being mentioned by other members here lol Jackson Mississippi being one of the top five s*** hole places to live in the US most places you're going to need a translator like this

Yeah, dat be it! I think the term is sub-human....to be rat. yo