The Worst British Pipes To Date?

[cosmicfolklore]

Can anyone explain to me why all pipe makers ever don't just put a goddamn date on the goddamn pipes?

My un-educated guess is that if a pipe sets in a pipe shop for a couple of years with that date of mfg on it, then guys are going to start harassing that pipeshop owner into taking a loss after seeing that it is a few years old.

The only ones who really care about the date of mfg are those nerdiest of us way into the future looking back with nostalgia.

 

[Saintwilliam]

I am pretty sure that yours was made by Reuben Charatan. Why? because of the bend on the mouthpiece. I am sure this pipe is pre 1962. Reuben hated making bents with taper mouthpieces, especially the larger ones like this, as they used to take so long to warm up and since Reuben died, the curve on the bent pipes became more graceful. The photo I have included is from the 1951 catalogue and after the mid 1960s the stamping became larger. This is the shape that Barry used to make the Cup and Saucer shapes from in the 1960s. It is a rare pipe! I have never seen one. They stopped making this giant in mid 1960s I think.

WOW! I am going to screenshot this post and staple it to this pipe! (Just kidding

How lucky are we that we get to learn about the quirkiest nuances of such a beloved pipe brand like Reuben making angle bends on giant pipes because he just didn't like to do it?

Thank you again! I look forward to the next bit to come up after this one

 

[kenbarnes]

I do not think he bent them like that because he couldn't be bothered. In those days this type of 'curve' was a tendency with some pipe-makers. Barry and me called this kind of bend 'hooky'. In those days Reuben used a candle or a Bunsen burner and gently warmed the mouthpiece which may have taken 10 minutes with a thick one like this. When it became soft in the middle he 'bent it'. I use a Bunsen Burner for my pipes and it takes me 10+ minutes to get the whole mouthpiece supple so I can produce a more flowing bend on the pipe. I do like to fit large bents with saddle mouthpieces which can give a more graceful curve.
In the mid 1960s Dunhill and Charatan had an oven for warming the mouthpieces which was easier and quicker.

 

[mso489]

alaskanpiper, I've been tilting at that windmill for years, to get pipes dated with the year of manufacture, but cosmic came up with the usual explanation that any date might be taken as a sort of sell-by date and make pipes depreciate that otherwise could retain full value. I'd love a birth year Savinelli or Stanwell, but it won't happen. However, at least some artisans stamp or etch in the date, and at least one factory pipe maker does stamp their pipes. Luciano, if they are still in business. I have two, an author and a billiard, and I love that they did that.

 

[BROBS]

Boy, I have to quit drinking this stuff. I thought the title meant the worst British pipes made until this time, to date, rather than the hardest pipes for which to determine the date of manufacture. Oh well. I'll be okay.

that's totally what I thought to...
the worst British pipes made up until this point in time. (to date)

 

[BROBS]

the whole point of the date is for warranty on a Dunhill.
Other makers can be dated with silver hallmarking.
Otherwise, there really would be no point to dating the pipes as far as the maker is concerned.

 

[Kottan]

The Charatan shape 44 is the Giant Bent. If these numbers are stamped near the shank it is an old one definitely before 1967. Another date indicator is the size of the Charatans Make London England. The stamping was considerably smaller in the early to mid 1950s and no apostrophe between the n and s of 'Charatans' and no dot between London and England.
I can post a 'picture' of one from 1951 if you like?

Thank you Ken, for sharing your knowledge regarding the dating of Charatans. These little but important details arn't mentioned in any of the "Charatan articles" I could find. On the other hand your info causes some confusion because I have several Charatan estates of which I thought they would belong to the second Lane era. But now, after a sharper look at their stampings , I saw that they have the above mentioned apostrophe but there is no dot between "London" and "England". So my attempt to date the pipes seems to have failed.
Do you know, since when the dot was absent?
Peter


,

 

[jpmcwjr]

The worst British pipes up to this moment are the wooden water and sewer pipes. They tend to leak, rot, and just aren't very modern.

 

[kenbarnes]

Hello Kottan,
I cannot answer your question. This has given me the opportunity to look through all my Frederick & Reuben Charatan pipes and later ones from 1964 onwards. I see from the 1951 catalogue that some of the pipes that are illustrated have no apostrophe although some do. I have a very rare smooth Countryman Selected here - probably one of the first made from the mid 1950s and this has an apostrophe and a dot but the dot is 'tall' nearly as tall as the apostrophe. I have an Underboar here with a dash between London and England. The 1965-66 brochure shows the pipes are stamped with apostrophe and dot. I think that they may have had a few stamps which were slightly different, some more worn than others. I know that when we worked at Upshall, Barry never 'threw a stamp away' the old ones were always kept in case...
I have also noticed that the Giant Billiard illlustrated in the 1951 Charatan Catalogue is actually a pipe from Reuben's father (pre 1910) because it is stamped London. Eng. .
You may find some other information here:

http://brbpipe.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/T-shop_1-2011-12_56-69_3.pdf

 

[Kottan]

Hello Kottan,
I cannot answer your question. This has given me the opportunity to look through all my Frederick & Reuben Charatan pipes and later ones from 1964 onwards. I see from the 1951 catalogue that some of the pipes that are illustrated have no apostrophe although some do. I have a very rare smooth Countryman Selected here - probably one of the first made from the mid 1950s and this has an apostrophe and a dot but the dot is 'tall' nearly as tall as the apostrophe. I have an Underboar here with a dash between London and England. The 1965-66 brochure shows the pipes are stamped with apostrophe and dot. I think that they may have had a few stamps which were slightly different, some more worn than others. I know that when we worked at Upshall, Barry never 'threw a stamp away' the old ones were always kept in case...
I have also noticed that the Giant Billiard illlustrated in the 1951 Charatan Catalogue is actually a pipe from Reuben's father (pre 1910) because it is stamped London. Eng. .
You may find some other information here:

http://brbpipe.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/T-shop_1-2011-12_56-69_3.pdf

Many thanks Ken, for your kind response and pardon me for the (very) delayed answer. I don't speak Russian but some pictures in the linked article gave me a lttle new hope of solving the mystery of the missing dot on Charatan pipes' nomenclature. Among the example images are a few which exactly display my described problem. Of course, that is nothing special but interestly the dot seems absent only on lower grade pipes like Perfections, Belvederes or Specials. I wrote an email to Roman Bokov and asked him for further information and if his article is also avaiable in English, but he hasn't answered yet.
Perhaps the dot was not stamped on lower grades since Dunhill bought Charatan until they altered the CP logo in 1980. (I have no Charatans with the newer logo, so I can't say anything about their markings).
The last week I purchased a "Charatan's Make Perfection Made By Hand" on ebay and again my dating problem occurs ....

 

[kenbarnes]

This Charatan Perfection is from the 1970s probably 1974-5. When Herman Lane was asked where he wanted the 'L' to be stamped on the shank his answer was 'it doesn't matter where, as long as all Charatans coming to the USA have one'. So, Leslie Rand who was in charge of dispatching the orders to the US stamped the 'L' wherever he saw a small spot, flaw or imperfection, no matter where it was on the shank. This is an example of Leslie's work! There was a joke at Charatans that when some small flaws were discovered on a Charatan shank it was said 'get Leslie to stamp an 'L' on that one and send it to Lane'. There are one or two pipes out there with more than one 'L' on the shank when Leslie got a bit carried away when he saw a couple of sandspots on the shank!
At one time there was a dot between the J and U of the James Upshall mouthpiece logo. I think this was from the first stamp die we ordered in 1978, Then the dot disappeared. I think Barry thought it looked better without and found a way of removing it from the die. (very fine work!)

 

[Kottan]

This Charatan Perfection is from the 1970s probably 1974-5. When Herman Lane was asked where he wanted the 'L' to be stamped on the shank his answer was 'it doesn't matter where, as long as all Charatans coming to the USA have one'. So, Leslie Rand who was in charge of dispatching the orders to the US stamped the 'L' wherever he saw a small spot, flaw or imperfection, no matter where it was on the shank. This is an example of Leslie's work! There was a joke at Charatans that when some small flaws were discovered on a Charatan shank it was said 'get Leslie to stamp an 'L' on that one and send it to Lane'. There are one or two pipes out there with more than one 'L' on the shank when Leslie got a bit carried away when he saw a couple of sandspots on the shank!
At one time there was a dot between the J and U of the James Upshall mouthpiece logo. I think this was from the first stamp die we ordered in 1978, Then the dot disappeared. I think Barry thought it looked better without and found a way of removing it from the die. (very fine work!)

Each time I read your posts, Ken, I have a pleasant feeling because you associate factual infos with your personal experiences in a very entertaining way. Besides the year of manufacture I had never thought to get even told the name of the guy who stamped the Lane logo on this pipe. Albeit, I wondered, if there was a rule where on the shank Herman Lane’s circled L was placed. Ok, that follows the “Leslie Rand inspiration” and is less important for dating a Charatan pipe.

In another thread you talk about some wrong statements you have read in various articles on Charatan, and of course I now consider if all or which dating informations must be corrected. I have a...



CHARATAN’S MAKE

LONDON.ENGLAND

EXECUTiVE

MADE BY HAND

lN

City of London (in script font)

£ (in circle)

To figure out, when this pipe was made, I used the article of Fabio Ferrara, especially the excertped parts below. If he is right and I don’t missunderstand him, my Charatan could be one of the rare ones from 1965. What do you think, Ken?



Ouotes from Pipedia, Fabio Ferrara: ‘Dating of Charatans’



[...] c) The engraving 'MADE BY HAND (in caps) -IN-City of London' in three lines identifies pipes made between 1965 and 1966. The engraving in script font 'Made by Hand -In-City of London' on three lines identifies pipes made between 1966 and 1979. [...]

Identification of a fourth era pipe (Second Lane era, 1965-76)

[...] 5) Presence of the writing “MADE BY HAND – IN – City of London” on 3 lines with the first line all capitals (only for 6 months in 1965 and so, it makes those pipes quite rare) then, from 1966 to 1979 the 'Made by Hand' as been converted on a lower case script font “Made by Hand -In- City of London”.[...]

 

[kenbarnes]

Yes, I am sure this is an early one as they have used the old Made by hand stamp with the new scripted city of London stamp - is that the 'L' stamp on the 'bowl'? I have never seen that before! This may have been one of the first that were 'L' stamped. I do not know when the 'L' was first introduced - I can ask Barry the next time I speak with him.

 

[Kottan]

Yes, I am sure this is an early one as they have used the old Made by hand stamp with the new scripted city of London stamp - is that the 'L' stamp on the 'bowl'? I have never seen that before! This may have been one of the first that were 'L' stamped. I do not know when the 'L' was first introduced - I can ask Barry the next time I speak with him.

That nade my day, thank you so much, Ken!

Yes, it is the Lane-Logo, nearly stamped under the bowl turned upside down.(Arangement Leslie Rand, I guess ?) The L reminds me a bit of the British pound sign (£).

I (and surely many other Charatan fans) would appreciate if Barry Jones could remember the year since when the L was stamped on the pipes for the US market. That would definitely clarify another contrary point in various articles on Charatan, like the introduction of the DC-mouthpiece or the rumuor of the apprentice made lower quality grades etc, etc.

 

[kenbarnes]

The DC mouthpiece was first used in November 1964.
I will ask Barry about when the '£' stamp was first used. I am pretty sure he will not know the exact year but he will know whether it was after Reuben's death or a year before he bought his first Austin Mini or whether it was when the factory was in Vine Street or Mansell Street etc - so approximately. Perhaps someone has information Jon Guss?

 

[jguss]

The DC mouthpiece was first used in November 1964.
I will ask Barry about when the '£' stamp was first used. I am pretty sure he will not know the exact year but he will know whether it was after Reuben's death or a year before he bought his first Austin Mini or whether it was when the factory was in Vine Street or Mansell Street etc - so approximately. Perhaps someone has information Jon Guss?

Hi Ken,

I know that Tad Gage in his article (linked by Kottan in another thread) said this about the introduction of the £:

When he [Herman Lane] became exclusive distributor, Lane and Charatan agreed to have the distinctive script "L" stamped on every pipe sent to the United States.

Tad places the granting of the exclusive distributorship at 1955, and that's consistent with other documentation I've seen, notably 1) a Lane Ltd credit report dated October 28, 1957 that included this sentence: Reportedly [Lane Ltd] is sole distributor of Charatan pipes in this country; and 2) an initial appearance of Charatan pipes under Lane's name in the 1957 edition of the RTDA Almanac.

Taking all that together, if Herman Lane's recollection is accurate (the Gage article was based on his interview with Lane) the introduction of the stamp would be mid-fifties.

I can shoot Tad an email if you like to see if he has anything else in his notes on this subject, but suspect Barry might be a better bet if he was at the company in 1955 or so.

Jon

 

[Kottan]

I will ask Barry about when the '£' stamp was first used.

Hello Ken,
did Barry recall the year since the Charatans made for the US market have been stamped with Lane's logo £, or did he perhaps knew if this stamp was already used when he started his career at Charatan in 1959?

I will combine this post with another question. Three weeks ago I bought a used Charatan which is a mystery to me. It was advertised as 'a nice pipe bearing a rare shape number'. In seller's mind this number was '3'. Indeed, a '3' is stamped on the right side of the shank but nothing else although the stem is DC. In fact there is no shape number 3 in any Charatan shape chart.

The pipe is a thick walled pot with a slim shank but none of the known pots i.e. Pot Royal (655DC, 2655DC), Chubby Pot (149DC, 348DC), Outsized Pot (148DC) or Bevelled Top Pot (4148DC).

I think, if it was a freehand it would have been stamped with 'Made By Hand' or 'F.H' and the '3' could indicate the group size but this is not the case. The size is Dunhill 5. ???

 

[kenbarnes]

Hello Kottan
Yes, Barry did say that the 'L' stamp was used in 1960 if not before. I thought it was later. He said that when Herman Lane made his visits to the factory, he would select pipes that he wanted for the US and get Reuben to stamp the 'L' stamp on each one (to make sure he got sent these pipes and not some other ones). I don't know if, at that time, he took the stamp back to the US with him! Obviously, in the past, he had selected some pipes that he did not receive or he thought he did not select and this was the initial reason for having the 'L' stamp.
I learn something new each day!
Generally, I think Charatan group sizes were larger than Dunhill and this is a Belvedere group 3 'Freeshape'. It may be a large group 3 but they also bore in mind the height of the bowl. Incidentally, there may be a hairline crack in the shank on the side where the group size is.

 

[Kottan]

Hello Kottan
Yes, Barry did say that the 'L' stamp was used in 1960 if not before. I thought it was later. He said that when Herman Lane made his visits to the factory, he would select pipes that he wanted for the US and get Reuben to stamp the 'L' stamp on each one (to make sure he got sent these pipes and not some other ones). I don't know if, at that time, he took the stamp back to the US with him! Obviously, in the past, he had selected some pipes that he did not receive or he thought he did not select and this was the initial reason for having the 'L' stamp.
I learn something new each day!
Generally, I think Charatan group sizes were larger than Dunhill and this is a Belvedere group 3 'Freeshape'. It may be a large group 3 but they also bore in mind the height of the bowl. Incidentally, there may be a hairline crack in the shank on the side where the group size is.

Thanks Ken (and Barry) for the info. So we can state that Herman Lane was sole distributer for Charatan pipes since 1955 (as Jguss pointed out) and the £-stamp was introduced later between 1956 and 1959 for Mr. Lane's controlling purposes.

I took a magnifying glass and looked at the 'hairline crack' you mentioned. Fortunately it was only on the surface not in the wood and I could fix it by buffing.

But I have two other pipes I want to show you, a Charatan Special 481 DC and a NOS Ben Wade 50 Standard. They both have a red dot on the mouthpiece and I don't know why. The dots must have been stamped at the factory at least in case of the Ben Wade because its red dot lies under the Ben Wade stamp. And apperently the DC stem of the Charatan was not marked with the usual patent no. but has the CP-logo.

Please take a look, Ken, by zooming in.

 

[mso489]

I think tobacco pipe smoking is a rarified enough activity by now that date-stamping pipes would not make them depreciate. Most pipe smokers see them in a sort of historical context anyway, knowing this is an anachronism. Pipe shop owners could solve the sell-by date psychology by simply saying, "Yes, well that is vintage, so the price will go up tomorrow." Take it or leave it, buddy.