Seconds and Sub-Brands

[wgstraub]

This may sound like a silly subject but I'm curious. Poking through Pipedia, as I sometimes do, I came across Royal Danish, described as a sub-brand of Stanwell. Then checking out Comoy, it has a list of what they called seconds, like Townhall and Trident.

So, are sub-brands and seconds the same thing or is there some sort of differentiation?

 

[F4RM3R]

I think much of the time they are the same thing. The sub or seconds brand usually having some minor cosmetic issue that they wouldn’t want to sell as a higher end pipe. They are a great deal in my opinion and often are drilled the same as the high grades and sometimes have quite nice briar. All depends on the brand though.

I have a really nice dr boston(butz choquin sub) and it’s drilled well and the stem and bit are a nice saddle style. It has some pits in the briar which they hid by pounding with a rough hammer to give a spotted rusticated sort of look. Great pipe. Also just picked up a bijou pipe(old Stan well 2nd). Excellent pipe but the stem doesn’t not fit perfectly flush to the shank.

 

[jewman22]

Depends on the company, some use a sub brand to market pipes that may not have as nice of grain or maybe the stem is a bit off. Where as seconds tend to have faults, such as a higher than normal amount of fills or poor drilling.
Not saying some companies dont use a sub brand to get rid of seconds, but they tend to be two different ideas.
Take Savinelli and their sub brand Rossi, now by no means are Rossis a second, they just aren't quite as ornate or pretty as the pricier Savinelli, but the drilling and fit and finish is bang on.
Also happens when one company buys the other, they might keep it around as a lesser brand.
IMO.

 

[OzPiper]

I have a made in Denmark Royal Danish pipe which I've just pulled out to have a look at on reading this post.
The grain is not great, but there were only 2 small fills that I really had to search hard to find. Fit and finish is as good as all my Stanwells (Danish made)

 

[sallow]

I've a Royal Danish I like quite a bit ( on the left)

 

[Chasing Embers]

Many seconds names came out of Holm's workshop.

 

[Briar Lee]

As I understand pipe making, all the care in the world can be used in the selection of briar, and a sand pit appears when the bowl is turned.

For the artisan maker, he might keep on removing briar to get past that pit, or blast it, but in the larger pipe factories there’s only two options, filling or filling and branding it as something else, a sub brand.

One of my fascinations with Lee Star Grade pipes is that the customer (just like Kaywoodie customers in that day) picked a shape and then paid $5, $10, $15, or $25 for the star grade (they began at two stars after 1946).

You can cheat a customer occasionally, but usually only once, and it’s risky.

Kaywoodie had a raft of sub brands that sold for as little as fifty cents. Kaywoodie also sold rusticated pipes, carved pipes, and within the Kaywoodie line they created a Standard and “500” to preserve their Drinkless, Super Grain, and Flame Grain grades as premium products.

Lee had only two sub brands I commonly see, Pipe Maker and Briarlee. There also was a Stroller sub brand, not often encountered.

A Pipe Maker will be a Lee with a dark stain, maybe some quirky looking briar, or some fills, maybe some carvings. I’d like to think they were Two of Three Star Seconds.

A Briarlee will be magnificently grained, but with a fill or two.

I think the Briarlee series were Four and Five Star seconds.

In any event a Briarlee is the best kept secret within the secret society of Lee pipe aficionados.

 

[Ahi Ka]

Orlik seconds (Royal sovereign) often have a nicer grain than the lower grade firsts. They also sometimes have hand moulded stems. The most collectible Comoy’s I have is a sub-brand, and even still is definitely a first.

 

[mso489]

Iwan Ries recently had a sale on GBD sub brand Medley pipes starting at $30 and as low as $20 per pipe if you bought three. I visited those things about 25 times, but couldn't find a size or shape that I didn't already own in a better version, so I finally abandon the shopping. I own two Rossi's and they are as good as Sav's for smoking, though they don't have as elegant finishes. I'd say, sub-brands are great rotation builders and good deals, but shop selectively and don't just buy the low price.

 

[telescopes]

I have a Sasieni 738 that instead of making it a sub brand was sold as a basket pipe. It is loaded with fills. But even after 30 years, it is a joy to smoke. I suppose basket pipes are a type of sub brand.

 

[OzPiper]

Seconds can be really good buys. I can't comment on American brands as I don't have any.

I've picked up a few pre-Cadogan Comoy Special Straight Grain and Select Straight Grain pipes for a fraction for the cost of a Blue Ribbon. To my eye, they have superior grain compared with my one and only Blue Ribbon. Not surprising as they are Supreme Straight Grain rejects that failed the grade usually because of one of two (often very tiny) fills.

Of course looks don't translate into smokeability, but I have not come across many adverse criticisms of pre-Cadogan Comoys on that score.

 

[sablebrush52]

As I understand pipe making, all the care in the world can be used in the selection of briar, and a sand pit appears when the bowl is turned.

For the artisan maker, he might keep on removing briar to get past that pit, or blast it, but in the larger pipe factories there’s only two options, filling or filling and branding it as something else, a sub brand.

Actually, that’s not exactly correct. Major manufacturers have more options, like sandblasting a pipe that won’t work as a smooth. In the heyday of the British factory pipe making industry, the better manufacturers, when confronted with a sandpit during final polishing, would attempt to reshape the pipe by hand, in what was termed a “cut down”. If the pipe could be carefully shaped to be a flawless smooth while still conforming to the overall proportions of the model’s pattern, it would leave the factory with the same model number. If not, it could be sandblasted, or it could be rusticated, reshaped and be output as a quaint. Sometimes a billiard would be reshaped as a pot. There were a number of options.
Companies like Comoy and Sasieni had established a system for downstreaming wood that they decided did not represent the quality of their top lines. They had seconds, thirds, fourths, fifths, and sixths. In addition, they made pipes for tobacconists using shop names that the tobacconist ordered.
Most of this was a matter of cosmetics and the pipes are often fine smokers.

 

[LudwigB88]

This is my Savinelli “Second” unfinished briar. A small billiard with proportions reminiscent of classic Dunhill. Probably my least expensive pipe, and for Virginias my favorite. Just smokes incredibly. And I love the way the unfinished briar feels in my hand. It has developed its own special patina. Just goes to show, money is not the deciding factor in how well a pipe smokes. If I had to choose one pipe for Virginias on a dessert island, THIS would be it ! If you look carefully, you will see the fills. I couldn’t care less. They actually ADD to the character !

 

[Alejo R.]

Depends on the company, some use a sub brand to market pipes that may not have as nice of grain or maybe the stem is a bit off. Where as seconds tend to have faults, such as a higher than normal amount of fills or poor drilling.
Not saying some companies dont use a sub brand to get rid of seconds, but they tend to be two different ideas.
Take Savinelli and their sub brand Rossi, now by no means are Rossis a second, they just aren't quite as ornate or pretty as the pricier Savinelli, but the drilling and fit and finish is bang on.
Also happens when one company buys the other, they might keep it around as a lesser brand.
IMO.

It's funny, because for me Rossi is the very definition of what a Second Brand is. You are buying the same pipe, the same shape, but with a cheaper finish, mouthpiece and case. It's just a more accessible version of the same thing. The same can be said for all of Stanwell's Sub Brands, they are the same cheaper Shapes.
IMO.

 

[Chasing Embers]

Rossi is the very definition of what a Second Brand is.

Once being a company unto itself more of a subsidiary than a second. Given the more recent Giubileo d'Oros, the stem work between one and a Rossi isn't much different.

 

[PLANofMAN]

I have a Royal Danish 954 Peewit, Stanwell sub-brand. There's a spot with 'looser' grain on the other side of the pipe that tends to develop a hot spot when smoked. Other than that, it's a fine smoker and the equal of my other Stanwells.

I'm hoping that as the cake develops, and with careful smoking, the hot spot will go away. It's one of my best smoking pipes, and one that rarely needs a relight.

 

[anotherbob]

I think for us the consumer it's about the same. I think the difference though is technically that a sub brand are pipes intended to be more affordable and hit that mark from the start. Seconds seem like they're more often pipes that didn't quite pass the muster for selling for full price. I think like a lot of pipe things there isn't as much of a hard definition as we'd like to think there is.
I guess this from looking at subs and second lines. Second lines seem often to be closer to the main brand in style but with more pits or less favorable grain. Subs often seem more simple and basic then the main brand.

 

[Hillcrest]

Hold on A Sec … Show us Your Seconds ! :: Pipes: Show Us Your (fill in the blank) Pipes

Title edited: no all caps! And I have no truck with however a person views his pipes. Nice illustrations! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder: Venus de Milo Someone once asked: ‘If they don’t have a name [brand] on them what good are they ? Well, that’s easy to answer … in most cases they...

pipesmagazine.com

 

[LudwigB88]

I could happily smoke only unfinished Savinelli seconds that I get new on eBay from Italy approximately $50. They have these benefits: 1. I LOVE the way the unfinished briar naturally gets a patina; 2. Some say unfinished briar smokes cooler; 3. I’m not a huge fan of Savinelli finishes anyway; 4. The seconds are usually smaller sized pipes which I prefer for Virginia Flake; 5. They DON’T have the stupid filter adaptors because they have normal sized stem hole.

 

[AroEnglish]

I've got two Irish Seconds (the seconds line from Peterson) and enjoy them both. The only issues with them were tiny dings on the silver. One had the added benefit of not having the metal P in the stem.