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It’s interesting how the premium pipe tobaccos don’t follow the same quality characteristics as other “premium” products that are based on agriculture.

I know that cigars are vastly different from pipe tobacco. Cigars, or most of the top end cigars are based on meeting the qualities and Characteristics of Cuban based cigars. Like 90% are all trying to copy the Cuban model. But, even in the stogies that are unique from the Cuban model, the quality is still based on a few objectives shared in other products. If any flavoring is added, it definitely reduces its value and demand.

In wines, single crops, no added chemicals to speed the process, and relying completely on the natural process is what makes a top tier wine. I mean, there are blends, those that were filtered, and have added chemicals to speed the process to meet the market demands, but these are not the top tier wines that are most sought after in auctions. And, add any flavorings to a wine, and it gets relegated to the below $10 wines sold on the bottom shelf of grocery stores; MD20/20, Arbor Mist, Barefoot blends, Stella Rosa, etc…

Bourbons are actually government regulated to be kept “pure” in quality. To sell a product in the USA labeled Bourbon, it has to be more than 50% corn, no added flavors or chemicals, made in the US, and aged in new, charred, oak barrels for at least 2 years. They can aged them in sherry barrels afterwards, but other than this, any variation from these rules, delegates it down to a whiskey.

Years ago, Greg Pease tried to market this idea of pipe tobaccos being pure, no added flavorings and such. Mark Ryan picked up on this also, but then after time went by, they both swayed away from this idea. Nowadays, the most sought after pipe tobaccos are a majority of heavily cased or aromatic. Esoterica and their licorice and treacle flavorings. Greg now sops on the spirits and has even contacted GH&co to have their aromatic juice made for a blend. Even FVF has a juice added to it.

I know that mold is an issue that has pipe tobacco manufacturers concerned. Mark Ryan had went back to the old notion of the historical keeping the tobacco dry for us to reduce this without having to add antifungals. Of course this bothered many of the pipe smokers that6 see this new notion of wet assed blends being the norm now. But, it hasn’t always been this way.

I think that the only company that still entertains this idea that I am presenting is C&D. Still blends like Opening Night and Virginia Flake are still kept unadulterated with casings, but yet the masses still look to sloppy juiced blends as the top tier tobaccos. McClelland gave us a few single crop blends, and helped McCrannies supply a tobacco that fell closest to what we see as top tier products in wine. Single crop products that will sway in flavors from year to year, naturally processed with no added flavorings. Just let time and nature work its magic. Of course some haters will never believe that they didn’t just slop vinegar on their leaf… whatever.

But, is it marketing, consumers’ lower expectations, or just money that prevents this notion of a purity in the product from taking hold?
Hell, even perique has a close purity expectation, misguidedly placed on location. But, even with perique, blenders slop their VaPer blends down with casing and topping.

Why do you think that this notion of premium pipe tobacco hasn’t taken hold strongly in pipe tobaccos?
 
Last edited:
Jan 30, 2020
2,203
7,308
New Jersey
I don't know anything about wine, but I think the cigar comparison is slightly misguided. "Premium cigars" do seem to include blends that have some added flavoring or process (though the FDA site does not include this in the definition, many different processed blends are sold in the market as premium cigars. By practice, it would appear "premium cigars" are really loosely identified as hand rolled, long/short filler and no filters/tips/etc).

That being said, I have no idea. I could take a guess that it's more of a historical expectations of pipe tobacco.....to a degree it's been that way for a very long time among mass market blends. As you mention, just look at the usual negative responses around D&R and C&D style manufacture.....it's very often around moisture and "too harsh".
 

monty55

Lifer
Apr 16, 2014
1,725
3,573
66
Bryan, Texas
That's a good question.

Personally, I don't like, nor buy or smoke the sloppy juiced blends your referencing.

I've always considered a premium blend to be a non-codger blend. I can't say I personally grade the premium blends from more to less premium.

It could be the same reason all the booze makers started adding flavor to their booze. Perhaps it's a generation thing. I know a lot of younger people like everything to taste like candy. They want to smoke their pinacolada through a vaporizer instead of drinking one. It's weird. I don't understand it, but I still like a gin martini, bourbon, and Greg Pease older non adulterated blends.
 
It could be the same reason all the booze makers started adding flavor to their booze. Perhaps it's a generation thing. I know a lot of younger people like everything to taste like candy. They want to smoke their pinacolada through a vaporizer instead of drinking one. It's weird. I don't understand it, but I still like a gin martini, bourbon, and Greg Pease older non adulterated blends.
Yes, f'n kids and their fireballs and coconut rums. I don't even understand cocktails to begin with. As a kid, I remember men talking about how mixing drinks was a woman's thing. Then, somehow men started drinking fruity, sugary sweet drinks too. I know that during prohibition everyone had to make the cheap moonshine more palatable. But, as soon as men could get bourbons and rum again, it was really women who were still drinking cocktails that didn't require having to develop a palate for the alcohol as much. Even wines with added apple, cherry, and strawberry flavors were marketed to women.
 
I don't know anything about wine, but I think the cigar comparison is slightly misguided. "Premium cigars" do seem to include blends that have some added flavoring or process (though the FDA site does not include this in the definition, many different processed blends are sold in the market as premium cigars. By practice, it would appear "premium cigars" are really loosely identified as hand rolled, long/short filler and no filters/tips/etc).

That being said, I have no idea. I could take a guess that it's more of a historical expectations of pipe tobacco.....to a degree it's been that way for a very long time among mass market blends. As you mention, just look at the usual negative responses around D&R and C&D style manufacture.....it's very often around moisture and "too harsh".
I think it all gets mushy in the degrees. There are some bourbons that get by the gov regs by not being Bottled in Bond. And, some wines that started off as all natural, going straight to auction, then latter started blending wines and adding things to stop fermentation to give the laymen drinkers the sweet wines they expect, to start making mainstream money. But, even though they may have awards on teh labels from past years, they are merely laying on the laurels, but no longer truly "premiums." Sort of like when Channel and other cartouche fashion designers started making "off the rack" designs to sell in departments stores.

Truly for the aficionado of cigars, a flavored cigar would never have an added flavoring.
 
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Auxsender

Lifer
Jul 17, 2022
1,104
5,693
Nashville
It’s interesting how the premium pipe tobaccos don’t follow the same quality characteristics as other “premium” products that are based on agriculture.

I know that cigars are vastly different from pipe tobacco. Cigars, or most of the top end cigars are based on meeting the qualities and Characteristics of Cuban based cigars. Like 90% are all trying to copy the Cuban model. But, even in the stogies that are unique from the Cuban model, the quality is still based on a few objectives shared in other products. If any flavoring is added, it definitely reduces its value and demand.

In wines, single crops, no added chemicals to speed the process, and relying completely on the natural process is what makes a top tier wine. I mean, there are blends, those that were filtered, and have added chemicals to speed the process to meet the market demands, but these are not the top tier wines that are most sought after in auctions. And, add any flavorings to a wine, and it gets relegated to the below $10 wines sold on the bottom shelf of grocery stores; MD20/20, Arbor Mist, Barefoot blends, Stella Rosa, etc…

Bourbons are actually government regulated to be kept “pure” in quality. To sell a product in the USA labeled Bourbon, it has to be more than 50% corn, no added flavors or chemicals, made in the US, and aged in new, charred, oak barrels for at least 2 years. They can aged them in sherry barrels afterwards, but other than this, any variation from these rules, delegates it down to a whiskey.

Years ago, Greg Pease tried to market this idea of pipe tobaccos being pure, no added flavorings and such. Mark Ryan picked up on this also, but then after time went by, they both swayed away from this idea. Nowadays, the most sought after pipe tobaccos are a majority of heavily cased or aromatic. Esoterica and their licorice and treacle flavorings. Greg now sops on the spirits and has even contacted GH&co to have their aromatic juice made for a blend. Even FVF has a juice added to it.

I know that mold is an issue that has pipe tobacco manufacturers concerned. Mark Ryan had went back to the old notion of the historical keeping the tobacco dry for us to reduce this without having to add antifungals. Of course this bothered many of the pipe smokers that6 see this new notion of wet assed blends being the norm now. But, it hasn’t always been this way.

I think that the only company that still entertains this idea that I am presenting is C&D. Still blends like Opening Night and Virginia Flake are still kept unadulterated with casings, but yet the masses still look to sloppy juiced blends as the top tier tobaccos. McClelland gave us a few single crop blends, and helped McCrannies supply a tobacco that fell closest to what we see as top tier products in wine. Single crop products that will sway in flavors from year to year, naturally processed with no added flavorings. Just let time and nature work its magic. Of course some haters will never believe that they didn’t just slop vinegar on their leaf… whatever.

But, is it marketing, consumers’ lower expectations, or just money that prevents this notion of a purity in the product from taking hold?
Hell, even perique has a close purity expectation, misguidedly placed on location. But, even with perique, blenders slop their VaPer blends down with casing and topping.

Why do you think that this notion of premium pipe tobacco hasn’t taken hold strongly in pipe tobaccos?
Here’s my $0.02

Profit is the primary concern of anyone selling anything, period. Wine makers, bourbon makers, tobacco makers are all operating within the confines of the laws of their origin country and the specifications of their specific product in order to make profit. If the market doesn’t deliver the profit, the maker will adapt to the demands of the market or they will die. My guess is that Pease and others realized additives boost profit. They adapted to the demands of the market so their business wouldn’t die.
Why are baccys with additives marketed as “premium”?
Profit.
 
Here’s my $0.02

Profit is the primary concern of anyone selling anything, period. Wine makers, bourbon makers, tobacco makers are all operating within the confines of the laws of their origin country and the specifications of their specific product in order to make profit. If the market doesn’t deliver the profit, the maker will adapt to the demands of the market or they will die. My guess is that Pease and others realized additives boost profit. They adapted to the demands of the market so their business wouldn’t die.
Why are baccys with additives marketed as “premium”?
Profit.
Which is sad.
I wonder if a farmer could start producing single crop premium tobaccos in maybe like 500 lbs quantities, and maybe get C&D to market it for them. Like, make the tins, $100 a tin. If it bothers a layman, fuck 'em. We're talking top tier, and there is always gonna be whiners and haters that complain because it excludes them.
If enough farmers could participate, they could have tastings and awards...
 

Auxsender

Lifer
Jul 17, 2022
1,104
5,693
Nashville
Which is sad.
I wonder if a farmer could start producing single crop premium tobaccos in maybe like 500 lbs quantities, and maybe get C&D to market it for them. Like, make the tins, $100 a tin. If it bothers a layman, fuck 'em. We're talking top tier, and there is always gonna be whiners and haters that complain because it excludes them.
If enough could participate, they could have tastings and awards...
It doesn’t bother me. I find what I like and discard the rest.
I’m just grateful we as pipers have such a massive choice.
You grow your own, right?
 
Jan 30, 2020
2,203
7,308
New Jersey
I think it all gets mushy in the degrees. There are some bourbons that get by the gov regs by not being Bottled in Bond. And, some wines that started off as all natural, going straight to auction, then latter started blending wines and adding things to stop fermentation to give the laymen drinkers the sweet wines they expect, to start making mainstream money. But, even though they may have awards on teh labels from past years, they are merely laying on the laurels, but no longer truly "premiums." Sort of like when Channel and other cartouche fashion designers started making "off the rack" designs to sell in departments stores.

Truly for the aficionado of cigars, a flavored cigar would never have an added flavoring.
And that's where you get into the blurred lines of "premium" within the broader "premium cigar" market. What the threshold for an aficionado? There's definitely flavored cigars in the $15-$20 per cigar category (online price), example being the Stillwell line that came out by Dunbarton Tobacco.
 
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And that's where you get into the blurred lines of "premium" within the broader "premium cigar" market. What the threshold for an aficionado? There's definitely flavored cigars in the $15-$20 per cigar category (online price), example being the Stillwell line that came out by Dunbarton Tobacco.
If you mean the Acid cigars, I think that those are more of a marketing novelty. I don't think the price for those is strictly set by demand. Most of the humidors I visit to buy sticks usually has an untouched box setting there for very long lengths of time.
Price doesn't always dictate a strict level of adhering to quality. In pipe tobaccos there have been ltd lines for aromatics released for higher prices, and some wines will start out as middle shelf blends and try to rise up by using pricing for more exclusivity, but that doesn't really mean "quality" in the strictest sense.
 
Jan 30, 2020
2,203
7,308
New Jersey
If you mean the Acid cigars, I think that those are more of a marketing novelty. I don't think the price for those is strictly set by demand. Most of the humidors I visit to buy sticks usually has an untouched box setting there for very long lengths of time.
Price doesn't always dictate a strict level of adhering to quality. In pipe tobaccos there have been ltd lines for aromatics released for higher prices, and some wines will start out as middle shelf blends and try to rise up by using pricing for more exclusivity, but that doesn't really mean "quality" in the strictest sense.
no I mean the Stillwell Star line by Dunbarton and Trust:


It's certainly presented and priced as some type of premium. That's why I said the cigar comparison is a little misguided because there are some lines that exist that have external flavors but are presented as a premium product. Just not to the degree by any means like pipe tobacco.
 

canucklehead

Lifer
Aug 1, 2018
2,862
15,355
Alberta
If you mean the Acid cigars, I think that those are more of a marketing novelty. I don't think the price for those is strictly set by demand. Most of the humidors I visit to buy sticks usually has an untouched box setting there for very long lengths of time.
Price doesn't always dictate a strict level of adhering to quality. In pipe tobaccos there have been ltd lines for aromatics released for higher prices, and some wines will start out as middle shelf blends and try to rise up by using pricing for more exclusivity, but that doesn't really mean "quality" in the strictest sense.
Several companies now make flavoured cigars in the $10+/stick category. An example:

 
no I mean the Stillwell Star line by Dunbarton and Trust:


It's certainly presented and priced as some type of premium. That's why I said the cigar comparison is a little misguided because there are some lines that exist that have external flavors but are presented as a premium product. Just not to the degree by any means like pipe tobacco.
Several companies now make flavoured cigars in the $10+/stick category. An example:

So, you are saying that my notion of premium presented is false because of some outliers? I don't think that an anomaly tears down the walls completely. These outliers are merely marketing glips, attempts to create a market. It happens in everything. Watches, clothes, cars even. If you sell it hard enough, people will buy into it.

You won't see a cherry flavored cigar get rated alongside a true premium cigar.
 
Jan 30, 2020
2,203
7,308
New Jersey
So, you are saying that my notion of premium presented is false because of some outliers? I don't think that an anomaly tears down the walls completely. These outliers are merely marketing glips, attempts to create a market. It happens in everything. Watches, clothes, cars even. If you sell it hard enough, people will buy into it.

You won't see a cherry flavored cigar get rated alongside a true premium cigar.
I didn't say false, I said misguided (twice). Another example is the popular Deadwood line:

 
I didn't say false, I said misguided (twice). Another example is the popular Deadwood line:

I would just consider these anomalies. And, again, price and marketing doesn't mean that these will get rated like an Arturo Fuente Don Carlos. So, it doesn't mean that I am exactly misguided, just that there are some other things also going on out there.
 
I know very little about the production and marketing of pipe tobacco so I’m a little confused by the notion that baccy with additives can’t be premium. If a leaf is considered premium when it’s done curing, does it cease to be premium if anything is added to it?
The whole point of my post is that there are no indicators for a premium line in pipe tobaccos.
 
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