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Jaylotw

Lifer
Mar 13, 2020
1,062
4,069
NE Ohio
Need proof of that statement. I've seen some dead fish, but that is quite a statement you made. Need to back it up.

Yes...I live in Ohio.

If this happened in Cali or the Coasts there would be immediate and overwhelming response by the Fed Govt. Can't help but feel like Washington doesn't GIVE A SHIT about my home State.
The people running our state don't even give a shit about our state man...

The only proof I have is admittedly anecdotal. My partner has friends with the ODNR and OEPA, both of which have been netting fish carcasses out of the creeks for the last week. Did absolutely everything die? I don't know, but word from the people doing the work (unofficial word, of course) is that those creeks are destroyed.

And your last statement is exactly why I'm on here making a stink about this. You can even see it in the responses here. From shock and sympathy, to utter disregard. I'm a Rust Belt kid, and I'm not just going to shut up about my people getting stomped on.
 
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To OP … I completely empathize with your sentiments. I would be indignant if I were you. I also agree that the village that had to evacuate is probably doomed.

Having said that I would probably look forward to an environmental impact study on the consequences on the larger area and an investigation/fact checks on the other allegations. We often get emotional in a tragic incident like this.

Any poison has a lethal dose. For Phosgene it is 1.6 ppm. The intensity of a chemical roughly decreases by a factor of 8 per distance (inversely proportional to the cube of the distance). So if we start with about 1 cubic meter of phosgene, it is quite harmless if spread over one square kilometer. Of course you have to start with the actual volume that was released, factor in wind, factor it’s weight relative to the atmosphere, and theory cannot rule out actual observations/measurements taken at the impacted area.

I still agree with you in principle and mostly disagree with the counterpoints.

I am a capital owner and as mentioned earlier by someone, I don’t believe in profits made at any cost. I would rather have sustainable profit, and may choose to vote out the management by proxy if it comes to that. Of course I am a small shareholder and invest indirectly but there are a lot of shareholders big and small that hold the same value.

Also, the culpability of any incident is on the CEO, unless he can prove that someone below him acted with malicious intent. It is his responsibility to set up the culture, operating model, and redundant safety measures for any dangers. Yes he would delegate all of it, but it does not absolve him of his responsibility


It was covered by both Wall Street Journal and New York Times, but no one has reported what you said yet. I trust the mainstream media and get the most respected ones from both sides of the political fence to get a balanced view
 

jpberg

Lifer
Aug 30, 2011
3,257
7,714
The people running our state don't even give a shit about our state man...

The only proof I have is admittedly anecdotal. My partner has friends with the ODNR and OEPA, both of which have been netting fish carcasses out of the creeks for the last week. Did absolutely everything die? I don't know, but word from the people doing the work (unofficial word, of course) is that those creeks are destroyed.

And your last statement is exactly why I'm on here making a stink about this. You can even see it in the responses here. From shock and sympathy, to utter disregard. I'm a Rust Belt kid, and I'm not just going to shut up about my people getting stomped on.
The stink you make here will be as effective as your Ukrainian Flag.
Preaching “greedy company, poor working man” has no effective range outside Woody Guthrie songs.
But, that’s what you believe, so let your voice be heard.
Edited to add: If any part of your train is smoking (other than that glorious diesel engine), you stop the fucker right there.
 
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mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,211
60,638
This is when the regional press is pivotal. Usually print media is best equipped to do investigative reporting, and that requires staff. I don't know how the Cleveland Plain Dealer's newsroom looks by now. Many of the even larger papers are running near empty in terms of staff. Everyone likes to dis the media, but reporting is the only way to lubricate the bureaucracies involved and get them to look at the causes, the results, and the remedies. Otherwise everyone goes into meetings and white papers and little gets done in this lifetime.
 

georged

Lifer
Mar 7, 2013
6,102
16,736
The exchange below is a prime example of how the energy of the young gets directed at "grab-able" immediate things, and the accumulated knowledge of experience is categorically dismissed by them.

It's like watching someone try to escape a jail cell by billygoat-ramming the bars with his head.

Screen Shot 2023-02-14 at 4.15.03 PM.png
 

Jaylotw

Lifer
Mar 13, 2020
1,062
4,069
NE Ohio
To OP … I completely empathize with your sentiments. I would be indignant if I were you. I also agree that the village that had to evacuate is probably doomed.

Having said that I would probably look forward to an environmental impact study on the consequences on the larger area and an investigation/fact checks on the other allegations. We often get emotional in a tragic incident like this.

Any poison has a lethal dose. For Phosgene it is 1.6 ppm. The intensity of a chemical roughly decreases by a factor of 8 per distance (inversely proportional to the cube of the distance). So if we start with about 1 cubic meter of phosgene, it is quite harmless if spread over one square kilometer. Of course you have to start with the actual volume that was released, factor in wind, factor it’s weight relative to the atmosphere, and theory cannot rule out actual observations/measurements taken at the impacted area.

I still agree with you in principle and mostly disagree with the counterpoints.

I am a capital owner and as mentioned earlier by someone, I don’t believe in profits made at any cost. I would rather have sustainable profit, and may choose to vote out the management by proxy if it comes to that. Of course I am a small shareholder and invest indirectly but there are a lot of shareholders big and small that hold the same value.

Also, the culpability of any incident is on the CEO, unless he can prove that someone below him acted with malicious intent. It is his responsibility to set up the culture, operating model, and redundant safety measures for any dangers. Yes he would delegate all of it, but it does not absolve him of his responsibility


It was covered by both Wall Street Journal and New York Times, but no one has reported what you said yet. I trust the mainstream media and get the most respected ones from both sides of the political fence to get a balanced view
Good on you, thanks for your views.

I know it was covered by most news channels...for a few days. It's already "over," as far as they're concerned. I use some of the same news sources as you, and I believe they are somewhat culpable for pushing a narrative when the workers went on strike and probably don't want to cover this too much...and the same goes for plenty of other news sources. It's why I'm here going on and on about it. If this happened outside of a poor area, it would be worldwide news.

As far as the chemical dispersions, I think I'm less worried about the airborne chemicals (although that cloud of poison was getting blown right to Pittsburgh) than I am about whatever else spilled. Norfolk Southern claimed to have "lost the manifest" but other carcinogenic chemicals have been found to have spilled at the site. I don't trust them to give an accurate picture, nor do I trust the Ohio EPA to give an accurate report.

I get that a business needs to be profitable. We need vinyl Chloride, or else I wouldn't have plumbing...and it needs to be shipped economically, but as you've said, safety and responsibility are paramount and I believe that both have been lacking simply to boost profit (NS posted record profits last quarter). I think you'd be happy with $0.02 less per share if it meant stuff like this disaster could be prevented.
 
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Jaylotw

Lifer
Mar 13, 2020
1,062
4,069
NE Ohio
The exchange below is a prime example of how the energy of the young gets directed at "grab-able" immediate things, and the accumulated knowledge of experience is categorically dismissed by them.

It's like watching someone try to escape a jail cell by billygoat-ramming the bars with his head.

View attachment 202652
It's an example of a guy trying to worm his way out of being wrong, is what it is.

The questions I posed to him are directly correlated with the safety measures being cut by the railroad which led to this disaster. He doesn't want to admit that that's the case, he wants a convenient fall guy...so he'll avoid my questions, as you will too. Those questions are, as you put it, "grab-able" because they're obvious questions to ask.
 
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Jaylotw

Lifer
Mar 13, 2020
1,062
4,069
NE Ohio
The stink you make here will be as effective as your Ukrainian Flag.
Preaching “greedy company, poor working man” has no effective range outside Woody Guthrie songs.
But, that’s what you believe, so let your voice be heard.
Edited to add: If any part of your train is smoking (other than that glorious diesel engine), you stop the fucker right there.
I've already made people aware who weren't already, so that's effective in my book, and I've had some enlightening conversation with people about it, which is also effective. I'm sorry my Ukrainian flag upsets you, I have friends who mean a lot to me and it reminds me of their struggles. And I love Woody, he's a legend and a hero.

So, if the train was smoking, why didn't they stop it right there? Why was that car allowed to go? Why did the sensor not pick up the heat from a burning axle like its supposed to?

Hmm...great questions! I'm sure you'll have a well thought response.
 
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Jaylotw

Lifer
Mar 13, 2020
1,062
4,069
NE Ohio
I will say this, I live in Ohio and read the Ohio newspapers through my library app. It's odd how little news this accident has generated. The more you read about it the worse it seems, yet we aren't hearing that much about it. Just odd.
That's why I'm here!
 

georged

Lifer
Mar 7, 2013
6,102
16,736
You get all rage-y at the railroad, then go after anyone who tries to assist you in directing that energy. Accomplished people who collectively have centuries of life experience.

It would be funny if the subject wasn't so serious.
 
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jpberg

Lifer
Aug 30, 2011
3,257
7,714
I've already made people aware who weren't already, so that's effective in my book, and I've had some enlightening conversation with people about it, which is also effective. I'm sorry my Ukrainian flag upsets you, I have friends who mean a lot to me and it reminds me of their struggles. And I love Woody, he's a legend and a hero.

So, if the train was smoking, why didn't they stop it right there? Why was that car allowed to go? Why did the sensor not pick up the heat from a burning axle like its supposed to?

Hmm...great questions! I'm sure you'll have a well thought response.
Yes. Four people on a pipe forum are now aware.
And your flag in no way offends me.
It identifies you.
 
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