Ohio Derailment

[Arthur Frayn]

Is it true that 30 million Americans live in the Ohio River basin that has contamination from this disaster? And the Ohio river itself supplies drinking water to 5 million Americans? That's pretty bad. Beyond typical 'human' folly I'd say.

 

[Streeper541]

I saw this movie already... Here in Ohio life is imitating art, as they are now calling it the "Airborne Toxic Event." All kidding aside, it's a pretty nasty derailment and I'm glad the wind is blowing the other direction from me.

 

[warren]

So, no one is willing to blames the low level functionary who allowed the train to continue with a smoking brake/carriage? Let's put the blame where it rests. Now various attorneys will attempt the widen the responsibility for the wreck as the man who made the decision doesn't have the "deep pockets" required. My interest is the functionary. Was he incompetent? Having a bad day? Weighed his accrued experience and knowledge before making his/decision? Simply made a decision which was later found to be the wrong one? And, so forth.

Tools, equipment, machinery, rails, road beds, etc. are all subject to failure over their lives. But, the guy making the critical decision after knowing of the smoke/fire ... he's the root failure. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

It's really simple, human failure plus mechanical failure equals a train wreck. It's all in the first paragraph of the OP.

 

[Jaylotw]

So, no one is willing to blames the low level functionary who allowed the train to continue with a smoking brake/carriage? Let's put the blame where it rests. Now various attorneys will attempt the widen the responsibility for the wreck as the man who made the decision doesn't have the "deep pockets" required. My interest is the functionary. Was he incompetent? Having a bad day? Weighed his accrued experience and knowledge before making his/decision? Simply made a decision which was later found to be the wrong one? And, so forth.

Tools, equipment, machinery, rails, road beds, etc. are all subject to failure over their lives. But, the guy making the critical decision after knowing of the smoke/fire ... he's the root failure. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

It's really simple, human failure plus mechanical failure equals a train wreck. It's all in the first paragraph of the OP.

There are sensors in the track that are supposed to detect hot axles. The train went over one 20 miles before the wreck. Surveillance shows the wheel sparking and on fire. The sensors didn't pick it up. The railroad companies have been skimping on safety measures, treating their employees like dirt...safety was a huge aspect of the attempted strike by rail workers, as were working conditions. If the sensor failed, why wasn't it inspected?

Railroads used to be mandated to spend 10 minutes PER CAR inspection brakes, axles, bearings and wheels. They lobbied to get that cut to three minutes. Then, they lobbied again to get that cut to 90 seconds. If you took your vehicle in to get a safety inspection and the mechanic spent 90 seconds on it, would you feel he did a thorough job? Of course not. But a tanker carrying 30,000 gallons of VC? Sure, let her roll.

The railroads have also been running on skeleton crews, so who knows how rushed and tired the inspection crews are, what's getting left undone, what corners are being cut. A few comments above mine, you can see a few railroad guys who are members here who can verify this.

The rail union was literally in front of Congress telling us all of this, how years of deregulation and greed by the rail companies were going to cause a catastrophic accident...and they were right.

We told them to shut up, quit whining, and get back to work.

I'm sure the engineer will loose his job. I'm sure he'll sign papers, probably get a severance to last him the rest of his days in exchange for keeping his mouth shut.

It's not his fault, it's Norfolk Southern's.

 

[Jaylotw]

I saw what you did there. but I believe I read that he is a bottom.

Yes, he is gay. I suppose that would be funny to someone in middle school. How about you read about what's happening in East Palestine instead?

 

[Jaylotw]

Is it true that 30 million Americans live in the Ohio River basin that has contamination from this disaster? And the Ohio river itself supplies drinking water to 5 million Americans? That's pretty bad. Beyond typical 'human' folly I'd say.

Yes. We don't know the full extent of the contamination, but the creeks in East Palestine flow directly into the Ohio and every living thing in them died. The EPA confirmed contamination in the Ohio, but again the extent isnt known, as far as I know.

Not to mention how far the wind took the burning chemicals...when VC is burned, it produces phosgene gas (a chemical weapon used in WWI) and hydrogen chloride, both extremely toxic, and both bind and react with water...so that black cloud just became poison rain somewhere. There are reports of livestock and pets dying.

 

[warren]

greed by the rail companies

The railroads are, by law, to look after the shareholders interests. The railroads are us, your retirement plans, market investments and so forth. There are many facets to this derailment. The railroad isn't some faceless, inhuman entity. It's millions of investments. The simple fact remains, the damaged truck (if that's the correct term. That's what they were called during my days of building rail.) was known and someone chose to ignore it. Very simple. Easy to locate the cause of the incident and it apparently isn't deregulation or politics, it's a wilful disregard for a known, dangerous situation. The nonworking sensors were apparently irrelevant in this case. Humans knew of the problem and chose to ignore it. Some individual made a considered decision which resulted in the wreck.

 

[Jaylotw]

Yeah, it's pretty horrible. I just happened to read recently about the Graniteville train crash near the NC-SC border, back in 2005. Nine or ten people basically immediately died from suffocation because of the chlorine gas released. That was the result of a total newb misreading the track switching, or some such failure. I'm sure there were major issues over the years for the people exposed who didn't die right away.

This ecological disaster appears to be many times worse, even though only one person appears to have immediately died from the wreck. But yes, this is going to have a huge affect on the region for years or decades to come.

I'm scratching my head about why they felt that detonating the chemicals was the best course of action here. Anyone know why? Or was it damned if do, super f*cked if you don't, kind of a situation?

In terms of deregulation and government leaders' incompetence, and what led to this: I'm also wondering what incompetence was happening with the railroad company itself. It seems to me that the companies, regardless of what safety regulations they need to follow, shouldn't be boneheaded simpletons about the decisions that caused this disaster. But what do I know.

Praying for the immediate and long-term victims. This really is sickening, and honestly a huge injustice that more focus isn't being put on this (especially from certain people at the top "who are really into trains").

The chemical in question has an extremely low boiling point. The train caught fire immediately after the wreck, at what Vinyl Chloride was still in intact tankers was reaching too high of a pressure...if one of those would've exploded, it would've taken out the town in a fireball. You also can't really effectively fight a VC fire...so the only option was to open the tankers and burn the stuff off to avoid detonation.

As far as incompetence at the railroad, I believe that flowed from the top...from railroads lobbying to shorten inspection times from 10 minutes to 90 seconds, from railroads using skeleton crews of overworked people who couldn't even get time off, railroads cutting corners. That just breeds negligence, or at least mistakes.

Norfolk Southern makes BILLIONS in net profit a year. They could afford safety, well treated crews. They chose not to, for profit, with the people of East Palestine, Ohio paying the price.

 

[Flatfish]

As far as I can see, there is no mention of the Ohio crash on the BBC in the UK. Even when I select news from the US.

 

[midwestpipesmoker70]

Oh God, that is rich. Baby boomers were born into a strong economy they inherited from the real heroes, the Greatest Generation followed by the Silent Generation. Boomers didn't build squat - they slowly sort of maintained while easing up on the quality because it was more profitable that way. All the WW2 love babies did was squander everything and take what wasn't nailed down. Environmental capital and regulations built around fair treatment being their chief spoils.

Being born Gen X or later is like starting Monopoly mid-game. The terms of the game have changed since the 40s and the 50s. No longer can a single middle class earner purchase a home and support a family on their one salary while saving a nest egg and going on one or two vacations per year. Those days are dead and we're playing a new game now.

Nailed it!

 

[Jaylotw]

The railroads are, by law, to look after the shareholders interests. The railroads are us, your retirement plans, market investments and so forth. There are many facets to this derailment. The railroad isn't some faceless, inhuman entity. It's millions of investments. The simple fact remains, the damaged truck (if that's the correct term. That's what they were called during my days of building rail.) was known and someone chose to ignore it. Very simple. Easy to locate the cause of the incident and it apparently isn't deregulation or politics, it's a wilful disregard for a known, dangerous situation. The nonworking sensors were apparently irrelevant in this case. Humans knew of the problem and chose to ignore it. Some individual made a considered decision which resulted in the wreck.

So. Shareholder's interests take precedent over safety? East Palestine is just a casualty of shareholder's interests, huh? Why spend the money on safety when there's shareholder's interests at stake? Good thing they lobbied like hell to get those expensive safety measures cut so the shareholder's interests were protected. Good thing the people paying the price now are just some dumb hicks in Ohio, right? Fuck them. I want my profits. No, bigger profits.

Norfolk Southern makes BILLIONS IN NET PROFIT A YEAR. Billions. They can afford safety and still make plenty of money for their shareholders.

You just want to find one guy to blame, but it's much bigger than that. You think you could identify a bad bearing on a car in less than 90 seconds? I don't.

 

[Jaylotw]

As far as I can see, there is no mention of the Ohio crash on the BBC in the UK. Even when I select news from the US.

Please spread the news, if you can.

 

[Arthur Frayn]

Yes, he is gay. I suppose that would be funny to someone in middle school. How about you read about what's happening in East Palestine instead?

True. Its also funny to other people as well. And you are also correct that this is a very serious matter.

 

[Jaylotw]

True. Its also funny to other people as well. And you are also correct that this is a very serious matter.

Yep. I live in part of that green area, too.

 

[Jaylotw]

A quick rundown of some railroad practices that have led to this.

 

[Arthur Frayn]

View of the area from the air.

 

[briarbuck]

Yes. We don't know the full extent of the contamination, but the creeks in East Palestine flow directly into the Ohio and every living thing in them died. The EPA confirmed contamination in the Ohio, but again the extent isnt known, as far as I know.

Need proof of that statement. I've seen some dead fish, but that is quite a statement you made. Need to back it up.

Yes...I live in Ohio.

If this happened in Cali or the Coasts there would be immediate and overwhelming response by the Fed Govt. Can't help but feel like Washington doesn't GIVE A SHIT about my home State.

 

[warren]

You just want to find one guy to blame, but it's much bigger than that. You think you could identify a bad bearing on a car in less than 90 seconds?

He/she knew about failure. You're simply wanting to blame an entity. An entity made up of people. It's time for the hysteria to ebb and a cold, hard, dispassionate look at what caused the wreck. In the larger scheme of life this incident is a minor concern. Well, except to those directly affected by the derailment. Not everyone wants to pay higher prices for increased transportation costs. In the real world, shit happens. But, the world moves placidly along.

Blaming everyone and everything remotely connected with the RR and the regulation of the various RR's is simply a more or less hysterical response which will accomplish nothing. Misdirected or possibly, politically/personally motivated finger pointing is certainly not the way to cirrect the various problems/oversights so readily pointed out in many of the above responses.

Thank goodness most of the investigators will use dispassionate observation and investigation to arrive at the root cause of the incident. Then any ancillary contributors. God bless the, hopefully, objective investigators. Then the politicians will pick a side. The lawyers will look to enrich themselves and their clients and things will return to the normal course of human events.

 

[Jaylotw]

He/she knew about failure. You're simply wanting to blame an entity. An entity made up of people. It's time for the hysteria to ebb and a cold, hard, dispassionate look at what caused the wreck. In the larger scheme of life this incident is a minor concern. Well, except to those directly affected by the derailment. Not everyone wants to pay higher prices for increased transportation costs. In the real world, shit happens. But, the world moves placidly along.

Blaming everyone and everything remotely connected with the RR and the regulation of the various RR's is simply a more or less hysterical response which will accomplish nothing. Misdirected or possibly, politically/personally motivated finger pointing is certainly not the way to cirrect the various problems/oversights so readily pointed out in many of the above responses.

Thank goodness most of the investigators will use dispassionate observation and investigation to arrive at the root cause of the incident. Then any ancillary contributors. God bless the, hopefully, objective investigators. Then the politicians will pick a side. The lawyers will look to enrich themselves and their clients and things will return to the normal course of human events.

Answer my question. Could you identify a bad wheel bearing in less than 90 seconds?

Or this one, for that matter: if your track crew was cut from 20 people to 4, do you think you'd do a good job keeping up on repairs?

Or this one: if you have worked 12/7 for the past two months and are sick but can't get a day off, do you think you'd be safe to operate a train?

You're looking for a fall guy. I'm looking for the root of the problem. The people who are to blame are the people who decided to put shareholder's interests above the lives of human beings. Answer my questions above, please, and then we'll discuss who might be ultimatly responsible.

 

[georged]

Oh God, that is rich. Baby boomers were born into a strong economy they inherited from the real heroes, the Greatest Generation followed by the Silent Generation. Boomers didn't build squat - they slowly sort of maintained while easing up on the quality because it was more profitable that way. All the WW2 love babies did was squander everything and take what wasn't nailed down. Environmental capital and regulations built around fair treatment being their chief spoils.

Since when does "those who came before them" mean---or even imply---only the preceeding generation?

Using such silliness as a rhetorical launching pad would get you smacked down by a 10th grade debate coach.