that's what I asked about. And it seems no, talk to the store first.
New Rule: Complaints About a Service / Product / Maker / Brand
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It looks as if most members understand the new rule, but it seems like some may be a little confused and unsure about it. I will attempt to explain a little more in depth and give some examples. But in no way will I be able to cover all scenarios, to attempt to do so would be an exercise in futility.
For the sake of clarity, this will be a lengthy and long winded post. So please bear with me.
We are not saying that negative reviews are not allowed. All honest reviews, both positive and negative, are valuable to everyone, including the retailer/vendor. Negative reviews can be helpful to retailers as it shows them areas that they may improve.
What we want is that if there is a negative review, for it to be a legitimate negative review. Not an emotional, fly off the cuff, review that maybe could have been resolved before posting about it.
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Here is an example of a legitimate negative review:
"I made a purchase at X,Y,Z, retailer. When I placed my order I ordered 15 tins of XX along with 10 tins of XXX and I also purchased a new pipe. When I received the package in the mail 5 tins of the XX was missing, 3 tins of the XXX was missing and the pipe had a big scratch down the side of it that wasn't in the pictures on their site. This pipe was advertised as new. I checked my account and indeed I was charged for the entire order.
I called and emailed them several times with no success over the course of three days. The fourth day I was finally able to get hold of someone and they were very rude to me. They accused me of lying about the missing tins and after arguing with them for over 30 minutes, they finally agreed to refund me for the missing tins. But they said that they wouldn't take the pipe back because they said that I could have damaged it and that there was no way for them to know. So now I am stuck with a damaged pipe that I paid full price for. I was left feeling very upset with the whole experience and would suggest being careful dealing with this retailer."
Now here is an example of a not so legitimate negative review:
"I placed an order with X, Y, Z retailer 2 weeks ago. The package was shipped the day after I placed my order, but it took 10 days to get to me and I only live one state over! When I opened the package 2 tins of my tobacco was dented and the stem of the pipe that I ordered doesn't look like it lines up properly.
This is ridiculious that it took so long to receive the package and that they didn't catch the problem with the pipe! Should I call them and complain or just keep the stuff? What would you guys do? I am so angry right now. I will never do business with them again and I suggest all of you to never buy anything from them either!"
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See the difference? The second reviewer never even attempted to contact the retailer to resolve the situation before going ballistic and blasting them. Unfortunately, this happens a lot.
Also, in my opinion, you shouldn't ask other people what they would do because everyone does things different. What is a big deal to you, others may not notice or care about. So if you get a pipe for example and something bugs you about it, send it back, because more than likely it will always bug you and you will never be happy with said pipe.
Questions, (especially ones about what you may think is a defect), are perfectly fine and valid if done in the proper way. They help to spread the wealth of knowledge on our site and helps to educate others on things that they may have previously not known. Some pipes may have specific idiosyncrasies that are specific for that particular manufacturer and are quite common and normal in that brand.
For example, (and I'm not bashing them as I have a few of them and smoke them myself), Dr. Grabow pipes. Pretty much every one of their bent pipes that I have seen has what I would call a "well" in the bottom of the chamber. I will attempt to explain what this is; there is a space between the bottom of the chamber and the draft hole where tobacco will sit and never be able to be burned. Actually this happens with a lot of lesser expensive, machine made pipes. It is a normal occurrence that some may be unaware of.
----------------------
Here is an example of how I would ask about it on the forums:
"Hey guys, I just bought this new Dr. Grabow pipe and I was looking it over and noticed that the draft hole isn't all the way at the bottom of the chamber. Is this normal for this brand of pipe or is it a defect? Should I return it to where I purchased it?"
------------------------
In that example the retailer was never mentioned. There was no bashing going on of a retailer and no irate rants happening. It was a question about a specific brand of pipe and if they received a defective pipe. There was no blaming of the retailer for something without first contacting them.
I would also like to add that to please keep in mind that blaming a retailer/vendor for a manufacturer's defect is just not right. defects happen. People make mistakes and have bad days. In a perfect world it wouldn't happen., but this isn't a perfect world. It never has been and it never will be.
There is no way that a retailer can check every single item that they sell. That is the entire point of a return policy. So that if there is a manufacturer's defect, you can return it to the retailer for a replacement or refund.
In this day and age of buying pipes on the internet, every online retailer that I have seen offer a specific amount of days that you can return a purchased pipe for a refund if you don't like it when you get it or there is something wrong with it. As long as you don't violate the warranty. Which is very simple, don't smoke or modify the pipe if you are unsure if you want to keep it.
It's the same as other warranties for other products. If you buy a TV and something is wrong, you can take it back to the store for an exchange or refund. You open it up to try and "fix" it first, well you just violated the warranty.
So please don't leave a negative review if you smoked a pipe or did something else to it that voided the warranty and the retailer refused to take it back.
And as I said in a previous post, this goes for all retailers; not just site sponsors.
Like I said at the beginning, I couldn't cover every situation and circumstance. But hopefully this clears up some stuff.
P.S. Be sure to post the reviews of when something negative happens and the retailer goes out of their way to make it right as well. ?
For the sake of clarity, this will be a lengthy and long winded post. So please bear with me.
We are not saying that negative reviews are not allowed. All honest reviews, both positive and negative, are valuable to everyone, including the retailer/vendor. Negative reviews can be helpful to retailers as it shows them areas that they may improve.
What we want is that if there is a negative review, for it to be a legitimate negative review. Not an emotional, fly off the cuff, review that maybe could have been resolved before posting about it.
-----------------------
Here is an example of a legitimate negative review:
"I made a purchase at X,Y,Z, retailer. When I placed my order I ordered 15 tins of XX along with 10 tins of XXX and I also purchased a new pipe. When I received the package in the mail 5 tins of the XX was missing, 3 tins of the XXX was missing and the pipe had a big scratch down the side of it that wasn't in the pictures on their site. This pipe was advertised as new. I checked my account and indeed I was charged for the entire order.
I called and emailed them several times with no success over the course of three days. The fourth day I was finally able to get hold of someone and they were very rude to me. They accused me of lying about the missing tins and after arguing with them for over 30 minutes, they finally agreed to refund me for the missing tins. But they said that they wouldn't take the pipe back because they said that I could have damaged it and that there was no way for them to know. So now I am stuck with a damaged pipe that I paid full price for. I was left feeling very upset with the whole experience and would suggest being careful dealing with this retailer."
Now here is an example of a not so legitimate negative review:
"I placed an order with X, Y, Z retailer 2 weeks ago. The package was shipped the day after I placed my order, but it took 10 days to get to me and I only live one state over! When I opened the package 2 tins of my tobacco was dented and the stem of the pipe that I ordered doesn't look like it lines up properly.
This is ridiculious that it took so long to receive the package and that they didn't catch the problem with the pipe! Should I call them and complain or just keep the stuff? What would you guys do? I am so angry right now. I will never do business with them again and I suggest all of you to never buy anything from them either!"
---------------------------------------
See the difference? The second reviewer never even attempted to contact the retailer to resolve the situation before going ballistic and blasting them. Unfortunately, this happens a lot.
Also, in my opinion, you shouldn't ask other people what they would do because everyone does things different. What is a big deal to you, others may not notice or care about. So if you get a pipe for example and something bugs you about it, send it back, because more than likely it will always bug you and you will never be happy with said pipe.
Questions, (especially ones about what you may think is a defect), are perfectly fine and valid if done in the proper way. They help to spread the wealth of knowledge on our site and helps to educate others on things that they may have previously not known. Some pipes may have specific idiosyncrasies that are specific for that particular manufacturer and are quite common and normal in that brand.
For example, (and I'm not bashing them as I have a few of them and smoke them myself), Dr. Grabow pipes. Pretty much every one of their bent pipes that I have seen has what I would call a "well" in the bottom of the chamber. I will attempt to explain what this is; there is a space between the bottom of the chamber and the draft hole where tobacco will sit and never be able to be burned. Actually this happens with a lot of lesser expensive, machine made pipes. It is a normal occurrence that some may be unaware of.
----------------------
Here is an example of how I would ask about it on the forums:
"Hey guys, I just bought this new Dr. Grabow pipe and I was looking it over and noticed that the draft hole isn't all the way at the bottom of the chamber. Is this normal for this brand of pipe or is it a defect? Should I return it to where I purchased it?"
------------------------
In that example the retailer was never mentioned. There was no bashing going on of a retailer and no irate rants happening. It was a question about a specific brand of pipe and if they received a defective pipe. There was no blaming of the retailer for something without first contacting them.
I would also like to add that to please keep in mind that blaming a retailer/vendor for a manufacturer's defect is just not right. defects happen. People make mistakes and have bad days. In a perfect world it wouldn't happen., but this isn't a perfect world. It never has been and it never will be.
There is no way that a retailer can check every single item that they sell. That is the entire point of a return policy. So that if there is a manufacturer's defect, you can return it to the retailer for a replacement or refund.
In this day and age of buying pipes on the internet, every online retailer that I have seen offer a specific amount of days that you can return a purchased pipe for a refund if you don't like it when you get it or there is something wrong with it. As long as you don't violate the warranty. Which is very simple, don't smoke or modify the pipe if you are unsure if you want to keep it.
It's the same as other warranties for other products. If you buy a TV and something is wrong, you can take it back to the store for an exchange or refund. You open it up to try and "fix" it first, well you just violated the warranty.
So please don't leave a negative review if you smoked a pipe or did something else to it that voided the warranty and the retailer refused to take it back.
And as I said in a previous post, this goes for all retailers; not just site sponsors.
Like I said at the beginning, I couldn't cover every situation and circumstance. But hopefully this clears up some stuff.
P.S. Be sure to post the reviews of when something negative happens and the retailer goes out of their way to make it right as well. ?
I guess this means my carefully prepared 37,000 word essay excoriating tobacco retailers refusing to sell me a tractor-trailer load of Sir Walter Raleigh isn't gonna fly now.....
Cheers,
Chili
I would love to have a section of the forum dedicated to feedback/reviews, and allow negative reviews AFTER we have attempted to resolve the issue. It might get certain vendors to change their tune.
I can see where this is wise and appropriate when it comes to retailers. I do take issue including brands/makers. I wish someone had warned me off certain makers when I returned to seriously smoking pipes again. If a maker consistently has quality control issues, I feel it is a good service done to inform/warn others. I seriously doubt if I call or email a major pipe factory expressing my low opinion of their pipes, they would spend even a second caring what I think, and I certainly wouldn't dream of getting a satisfactory response. I understand not wanting to piss off a site sponsor by degrading them or a product they sell, but come on!
Also, seeking clarification. If somebody, say a newer pipe smoker, posts a question such as "What do you guys think about XYZ pipes? I saw one on ZZZ.com and I like how it looks." If I had multiple bad experiences with XYZ pipes, am I allowed to say "I've owned a few of them. One was drilled way high. On another, the finish bubbled, and the third one gurgles with every blend no matter how dry. Not worth the risk for me."? Or is that response outlawed?
Technically, it can't hurt to always contact customer support first.
Whatever effort you put into asking the forum would probably be more productive if you ask the company directly.
I addressed this in my post above. Here it is again:
Questions, (especially ones about what you may think is a defect), are perfectly fine and valid if done in the proper way. They help to spread the wealth of knowledge on our site and helps to educate others on things that they may have previously not known. Some pipes may have specific idiosyncrasies that are specific for that particular manufacturer and are quite common and normal in that brand.
For example, (and I'm not bashing them as I have a few of them and smoke them myself), Dr. Grabow pipes. Pretty much every one of their bent pipes that I have seen has what I would call a "well" in the bottom of the chamber. I will attempt to explain what this is; there is a space between the bottom of the chamber and the draft hole where tobacco will sit and never be able to be burned. Actually this happens with a lot of lesser expensive, machine made pipes. It is a normal occurrence that some may be unaware of.
----------------------
Here is an example of how I would ask about it on the forums:
"Hey guys, I just bought this new Dr. Grabow pipe and I was looking it over and noticed that the draft hole isn't all the way at the bottom of the chamber. Is this normal for this brand of pipe or is it a defect? Should I return it to where I purchased it?"
------------------------
In that example the retailer was never mentioned. There was no bashing going on of a retailer and no irate rants happening. It was a question about a specific brand of pipe and if they received a defective pipe. There was no blaming of the retailer for something without first contacting them.
?
Thanks for the clarity @python, I was wondering who had cleared SPC out of all the Gawith XX ropes...
your ‘legitimate complaints’ examples in regards to retailers/services are good, but what about products/brands as mentioned in Kevin’s original post?
cheers
your ‘legitimate complaints’ examples in regards to retailers/services are good, but what about products/brands as mentioned in Kevin’s original post?
cheers
I think, and from what I can gather from @python's elaborations is that it's fair game to warn others about products or brands that have been found lacking. Caveat emptor should be totally legitimate, but setting out on a perpetual jihad against a given product/brand is a different matter.
Case in point: as some here know, I purchased a MacQueen pipe that left much to be desired, and upon contacting the vendor and asking about the issues their response, though cordial, also left much to be desired. When the issue/pipe/vendor comes up, I point out my experience and shall continue to do so in order for others to make an informed decision about a potential or actual purchase. However, I haven't set out on a mission to trash said company and their pipes continuously, daily, and whenever I get (or fabricate in case I don't get) the chance. There's caution and then there's vindictiveness. I will embrace the one whilst wanting nothing to do with the other.
Case in point: as some here know, I purchased a MacQueen pipe that left much to be desired, and upon contacting the vendor and asking about the issues their response, though cordial, also left much to be desired. When the issue/pipe/vendor comes up, I point out my experience and shall continue to do so in order for others to make an informed decision about a potential or actual purchase. However, I haven't set out on a mission to trash said company and their pipes continuously, daily, and whenever I get (or fabricate in case I don't get) the chance. There's caution and then there's vindictiveness. I will embrace the one whilst wanting nothing to do with the other.
I agree that this is probably the intent. However that is not the language of the rule. In the case of the Dr Grabow example, it would still be against the language of the rule as there is no proof of contact with the SM Frank company regarding the area at the bottom of the bowl.
I think most of us agree with the spirit of the rule, we just would like the language of the rule to match it.
I personally have gotten very tired of certain members working hard to run off sponsors or trash some of the companies that make our hobby/addiction possible. I just would like a more thoughtful approach to the specific language of the rule so there is no grey area that we have to clarify, just a well-defined guideline or rule.
Yeah basically want to know how long I have to be on hold with P&C before making a comment here, or whether I need to ring lane Ltd before saying 1Q smells like urine
Wait, you actually got P&C on the phone??!
(Jokes here as P&C has been great to me most of the time)
In contrast to the rules that regulate how members interact with each other, as well as the consistent exclusion of political, religious etc. topics, I am not sure how helpful this new rule is. Basically, everyone should be allowed to say that they had a bad experience with whatever. Others may have had the same or good experiences. That's how a discussion comes about. It is wonderful here, I have never experienced such a well functioning forum. It's a bit of an 'ideal world' just because of the good moderation. However, if you have (exaggeratedly said) the only choice to complain about an annoying experience after doing this and that or to remain silent, we are not far from supervised writing.
If I have completely misunderstood the new rule just ignore this post.
Ps. What are the consequences if someone violates this rule?
If I have completely misunderstood the new rule just ignore this post.
Ps. What are the consequences if someone violates this rule?
Sadly, this directly contradicts what the original post says. Check the bolded sections which directly correlate to each-other. This is not ball-busting or being an arse, it's a genuine concern that I hope will be taken seriously. The point that I'm trying to make is this: While I agree with the original intent of not biting the hand that feeds us, I would like to see a clearly written rule that lets me know when I might step out of line. This one, with well-intentioned attempts at clarification, only has muddied my understanding of what is going to be tolerated. I also need to know that a truly bad actor in the pipe world can be outed as such. Again, this is only an attempt at clarification and not a way to "fight the power".
Again I want to clarify that this is not stirring the ****, it is a serious attempt at trying to help make this site its best.
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