New Obamacare Premium Hikes for Smokers
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The 50% that voted this guy in are the smokers and obese. They will get what they get. I'll smoke my cigars and pipes and enjoy my remaining years in tranquility. I'm just a party of one on this planet. All I want is to be left alone. Nothing more.
Sometimes people have to experience the wrath of a wrong decision to realize the right decision.
Sometimes people have to experience the wrath of a wrong decision to realize the right decision.
I went looking for more information, and found an article in the Denver Post.
According to that article, right now, insurance companies can refuse to cover smokers.
According to that article, right now, insurance companies can refuse to cover smokers.
So, if your choice is between no health insurance because you are a smoker, or having health insurance,but paying higher premiums than a non-smoker, which do you choose?
I doubt the opinion of any medical 'expert' given the complicity (or ignorance) of the medical profession as it regards food additives, hormones, derivatives, and general dietary advice.
(disclaimer: not a fatty making excuses- 6'1", 180 lbs, ~10% body fat at 40 yrs old)
The AMA is completely bought and paid for by the industrial food lobby and the health, weight, & psychological issues that result make those of smoking look mild by comparison. This renders their opinion on anything fairly suspect. And the permanent entrenchment of industrial food lobbies, massive campaign contributions, the suburbanization of American culture, and the unwillingness of Americans to get their hands dirty renders us generally incapable of serious purpose when discussing this issue.
(disclaimer: not a fatty making excuses- 6'1", 180 lbs, ~10% body fat at 40 yrs old)
The AMA is completely bought and paid for by the industrial food lobby and the health, weight, & psychological issues that result make those of smoking look mild by comparison. This renders their opinion on anything fairly suspect. And the permanent entrenchment of industrial food lobbies, massive campaign contributions, the suburbanization of American culture, and the unwillingness of Americans to get their hands dirty renders us generally incapable of serious purpose when discussing this issue.
My dad told me about this over the weekend and then when I saw it on MSN of all places, I became furious.
zonomo: They can check nicotine with blood tests. And some will say, how can they compel someone to give there blood without a warrant? On the one hand, they might. On the other hand, and this more likely, what will happen is that everyone will deny smoking (as there is no distinction between cigs, cigars, and pipes), the CDC, WHO and American Cancer Society will declare victory and then outlaw tobacco since there is now no one who 'abuses' it anymore therefore there is no demographic for it anymore.
We can only hope this generation of hypocritical politicians is short lived and common sense will prevail soon. The people in charge now have done things and now condemn them and then stand behind them depending on who is doing them (or vice versa and this is intentionally non-specific due to political prohibition).
I believe I have the right to live and die as I wish but I suppose that is not a politically popular idea. I can not smoke at work, fine, I cannot smoke at all on my own time, that is approaching tyranny. The MSN article I read included commentary about the 20 some odd states that have smoker protection laws and then someone deriding them, mocking them as if people who use tobacco were a legitimate minority that deserved protection.
If one had to chose the lesser of any number evils, what does one choose? Is it too early to start making t-shirts that state, 'Keep your laws off of my body?
Think about it.
zonomo: They can check nicotine with blood tests. And some will say, how can they compel someone to give there blood without a warrant? On the one hand, they might. On the other hand, and this more likely, what will happen is that everyone will deny smoking (as there is no distinction between cigs, cigars, and pipes), the CDC, WHO and American Cancer Society will declare victory and then outlaw tobacco since there is now no one who 'abuses' it anymore therefore there is no demographic for it anymore.
We can only hope this generation of hypocritical politicians is short lived and common sense will prevail soon. The people in charge now have done things and now condemn them and then stand behind them depending on who is doing them (or vice versa and this is intentionally non-specific due to political prohibition).
I believe I have the right to live and die as I wish but I suppose that is not a politically popular idea. I can not smoke at work, fine, I cannot smoke at all on my own time, that is approaching tyranny. The MSN article I read included commentary about the 20 some odd states that have smoker protection laws and then someone deriding them, mocking them as if people who use tobacco were a legitimate minority that deserved protection.
If one had to chose the lesser of any number evils, what does one choose? Is it too early to start making t-shirts that state, 'Keep your laws off of my body?
Think about it.
It stands to reason, Reichenbach. Unfortunately, we are a nation of hypocrites. And this is nothing more than chickens coming home to roost. How many outraged smokers have, in the past, supported regulation of that which they personally find distasteful and, through their vote, pointed the loaded gun of state in someone else's direcrion?
I read today, concerning a tobacco ban on a campus (which is another issue) in response to some question like, "why are there no smoking areas?"
Answer, "We do not wish to imply that tobacco use is acceptable"
So, my hobby is unacceptable? Like a pariah. What's unacceptable is someone telling me what is unacceptable for me
Answer, "We do not wish to imply that tobacco use is acceptable"
So, my hobby is unacceptable? Like a pariah. What's unacceptable is someone telling me what is unacceptable for me
Here's a real nice addition to the discussion courtesy of the AP.
First paragraph from article:
NEW YORK (AP) -- Faced with the high cost of caring for smokers and overeaters, experts say society must grapple with a blunt question: Instead of trying to penalize them and change their ways, why not just let these health sinners die prematurely from their unhealthy habits?
You gotta love that phrase..."health sinners". And, of course, there is never any distinction made between cigarette smokers and pipe or cigar smokers.
Full article:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MED_HEALTH_COSTS_REALITY_CHECK?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-01-26-10-03-12
First paragraph from article:
NEW YORK (AP) -- Faced with the high cost of caring for smokers and overeaters, experts say society must grapple with a blunt question: Instead of trying to penalize them and change their ways, why not just let these health sinners die prematurely from their unhealthy habits?
You gotta love that phrase..."health sinners". And, of course, there is never any distinction made between cigarette smokers and pipe or cigar smokers.
Full article:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MED_HEALTH_COSTS_REALITY_CHECK?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-01-26-10-03-12
Wait.. what happened to tolerance? I thought every and all ideas equally valid, every decision made has a moral equivalence, etc. No? That really is the central problem with anyone accepting what the State deems as acceptable. Sooner or later, they'll hit something you really do care about.
Some years ago, I realized that I am going to die.
Shouldn't have been a surprise, since it's happened to so many people already, but it was. Logically and calmly, I told myself that someday, my life functions will cease and my body will rot away.
I'm going to die. To be dead. No more fun, no more love, no more chili and hot tamales. Man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets. Something will come next, I believe, but exactly what I'm not sure.
Until that day, however, I am a free man. I have rights as a free man that kings and governments cannot take away. They may pass a law, but my rights are inalienable. No matter what the majority may rule, my rights still exist, and I may still exercise them. As a free man.
Until that day, I will exercise them. There are a lot of things they may do to me, but I will still (among other things!) enjoy my pipe in the place of my choosing. If that shortens my life, so be it, for I have realized that I am going to die. No amount of careful living will stop it, no amount of government will postpone it.
I will do as I choose. I am a free man.
(However, my rights as a free man do not entitle me to break rules in someone else's space. I tried very hard to be apolitical, but if this doesn't meet the standard, delete it and accept my apology.)
Shouldn't have been a surprise, since it's happened to so many people already, but it was. Logically and calmly, I told myself that someday, my life functions will cease and my body will rot away.
I'm going to die. To be dead. No more fun, no more love, no more chili and hot tamales. Man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets. Something will come next, I believe, but exactly what I'm not sure.
Until that day, however, I am a free man. I have rights as a free man that kings and governments cannot take away. They may pass a law, but my rights are inalienable. No matter what the majority may rule, my rights still exist, and I may still exercise them. As a free man.
Until that day, I will exercise them. There are a lot of things they may do to me, but I will still (among other things!) enjoy my pipe in the place of my choosing. If that shortens my life, so be it, for I have realized that I am going to die. No amount of careful living will stop it, no amount of government will postpone it.
I will do as I choose. I am a free man.
(However, my rights as a free man do not entitle me to break rules in someone else's space. I tried very hard to be apolitical, but if this doesn't meet the standard, delete it and accept my apology.)
The article actually addresses that idea at one point:
"For example, some studies even suggest that because smokers and obese people die sooner, they may actually cost society less than healthy people who live much longer and develop chronic conditions like Alzheimer's disease."
IMO, the most insidious aspect of this particular article is that it is implying that people could or should just be DENIED certain types of health care altogether based on "health sins", such as smoking. Sounds like a slippery slope toward "death panels" to me.
What? Government actually ABOLISH an existing tax? Surely you jest.
Taken from the AP 'article' Brian posted:
[quoteFrom an economist's perspective, there would be less reason to grouse about unhealthy behaviors by smokers, obese people, motorcycle riders who eschew helmets and other health sinners if they agreed to pay the financial price for their choices.[/quote]
I thought that is why I was playing taxes to begin with. Or I guess they are too busy 'saving the children' with that money. In addition to that, young people generally pay into their health plan while hardly using the doctor (and Medicare, too), so am I not paying for my 'health sins' now?
Logically, I think so. What the 'powers that be' think? Probably not.
rothnh: I can't wait to having a clandestine smoking closet.
zonomo: All of that wasn't directed at you, I feel I should say. I started ranting and I had been enjoying some scotch so I got carried away. And I agree with you about the easy tax money but when enough people quit/die, they are certainly laying the groundwork for a 'fat tax' or calorie tax and that will be a perpetual money maker as well. Kinda of like how we are abating asbestos now but when that's gone, we're going to be abating fiberglass insulation and so on.
sothron: Political expediency is b*tch.
[quoteFrom an economist's perspective, there would be less reason to grouse about unhealthy behaviors by smokers, obese people, motorcycle riders who eschew helmets and other health sinners if they agreed to pay the financial price for their choices.[/quote]
I thought that is why I was playing taxes to begin with. Or I guess they are too busy 'saving the children' with that money. In addition to that, young people generally pay into their health plan while hardly using the doctor (and Medicare, too), so am I not paying for my 'health sins' now?
Logically, I think so. What the 'powers that be' think? Probably not.
rothnh: I can't wait to having a clandestine smoking closet.
zonomo: All of that wasn't directed at you, I feel I should say. I started ranting and I had been enjoying some scotch so I got carried away. And I agree with you about the easy tax money but when enough people quit/die, they are certainly laying the groundwork for a 'fat tax' or calorie tax and that will be a perpetual money maker as well. Kinda of like how we are abating asbestos now but when that's gone, we're going to be abating fiberglass insulation and so on.
sothron: Political expediency is b*tch.
It's 10:05 PM and 13 below zero outside. It's a great evening to warm up to some Jack and Mac Barens HH Highland Blend Limited Edition. This is a 3.5 oz tin, 442 of 500.
Life is good. I'm alive. I can't worry about the stuff I can't control. Life's to short for that.
Life is good. I'm alive. I can't worry about the stuff I can't control. Life's to short for that.
Whatever the government deems evil it will hound and demonize those that practice that evil. They will stop at nothing for the power and control they crave. They will change the criteria to suit whatever is politically correct at the time. The BMI can be manipulated any way they want to suit their needs. This whole thing will create a whole new class of criminals, us, who are trying to enjoy our lives as we see fit. It will also turn our Dr. into a rat fink as well as our neighbors. Look at the Soviet Union and how neighbors and friends ratted on each other to keep the heat away from them and to curry favor with the powers that be so they wouldn't end up in the gulag. Sowing the seeds of fear will keep most people in line.
Look, if a country decides to have the government foot part of the bill for the healthcare of its citizens, then it has an interest to maximize people's health and minimize their costs. Any higher risk activities are financially suspect -- the incentives are clear. If you didn't want this incentive structure you should have tried harder to have your voices heard in the debate.
(FTR, I strongly favor universal healthcare as a principle of civilization.)
On a positive note, as someone who can afford to pay for pipes and tobacco, I can also afford to pay for the likely premium of being insured while enjoying the risky hobby of my choice. After all, it is a choice I am making, so it is unfair for my well-informed individual choices to cause my neighbors bills to go up.
(FTR, I strongly favor universal healthcare as a principle of civilization.)
On a positive note, as someone who can afford to pay for pipes and tobacco, I can also afford to pay for the likely premium of being insured while enjoying the risky hobby of my choice. After all, it is a choice I am making, so it is unfair for my well-informed individual choices to cause my neighbors bills to go up.
Lines and Proof;
This whole ideal is so full of holes it will be impossible to manage, but of course a chance for yet another high paid committee, we can never pass the chance to create those!
At what line are you a smoker? A cigar with someone who’s just had a baby? Having a cigar/pipe while watching a football game? My wife works in a bar that smoking is legal (yes they still exist) she is surrounded by people smoking for 8-10 a day, probably works out to half a pack. Chewing tobacco, does that count? What about vapors, inhaling mist, tobacco extracts and nicotine.
If you don’t check smoker in the box, what are they going to do? Have people swear out forms that you smoke, who pays for this? Blood/piss test people? Nicotine takes 24 hours to be processed in your body.
There’s no possible way doctor is going to break confidentiality, which would lead to an insane amount of law suits, and lost licenses. The doctors would never think of filling out any forms regarding patients. They can tax us, but I got a feeling lawyers would have a field day with data gathering of customers. Getting tired of my rights that millions have died for, trampled by the “cause of the day” mentality. I think there’s plenty more things that needa fixin up at da’ house.
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This whole ideal is so full of holes it will be impossible to manage, but of course a chance for yet another high paid committee, we can never pass the chance to create those!
At what line are you a smoker? A cigar with someone who’s just had a baby? Having a cigar/pipe while watching a football game? My wife works in a bar that smoking is legal (yes they still exist) she is surrounded by people smoking for 8-10 a day, probably works out to half a pack. Chewing tobacco, does that count? What about vapors, inhaling mist, tobacco extracts and nicotine.
If you don’t check smoker in the box, what are they going to do? Have people swear out forms that you smoke, who pays for this? Blood/piss test people? Nicotine takes 24 hours to be processed in your body.
There’s no possible way doctor is going to break confidentiality, which would lead to an insane amount of law suits, and lost licenses. The doctors would never think of filling out any forms regarding patients. They can tax us, but I got a feeling lawyers would have a field day with data gathering of customers. Getting tired of my rights that millions have died for, trampled by the “cause of the day” mentality. I think there’s plenty more things that needa fixin up at da’ house.
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