My Estervals Order Was Sent By USPS To Customs And Has been Shipped Back To Germany

[marlinspike]

My plan is to order from Esterval again but I will use money I would normally spend at the casino (i.e. money I'm going to lose anyway.).

A far, far better use of your money! Get something in hand for that cash instead of a deflated sense of defeat.

 

[ofafeather]

However, the American “customer is always right” approach has its shortcomings too. Anyone who has ever worked in a service job knows it can be kind of humiliating to have to defer to an obnoxious aggressive customer when you really want to tell them to fuck off... which I’m pretty sure you can do in Europe.

I am with you on that. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. Sometimes it’s worth it to work with a customer even when they’re wrong. Either way, don’t be an ass. Then you’re just wrong whether yourethe merchant or customer.

My ex-uncle used to own an exclusive swimwear company that had a few retail stores. He was like the soup Nazi from Seinfeld and would toss people out of the student if they were a nuisance to him. It seemed reasonable to me at first, especially given the wealthy, entitled, arrogant clientele he served. I thought, “Great! He doesn’t take any huff from these pushy clients.” Unfortunately, that was how he ran his personal life, too, which is why he’s my ex-uncle - my aunt was his 3rd wife.

Guess the point is it doesn’t hurt to be nice (until it’s time to not be nice!).

 

[sablebrush52]

FWIW, here are Estervals terms:

​ international Returns Marked "Refused" or "Unclaimed": If you refuse to pay your local duty or tax, and the carrier bills TECON GmbH for the unpaid charges, we will subtract this amount and any return shipping fee from your return credit once the order is back. No refunds will be given for items that are seized at your local customs office or abandoned. There will likewise be no refund for damaged products on return orders that are marked "Refused" or "Unclaimed." We reserve the right to charge a 10% restocking fee for any international order that is returned to us because it was refused or unclaimed. The original shipping fee is non-refundable. Returns from outside the EU can not be refunded. Please note that return shipping charges apply to these returns. When re-shipping, a calculation of the return fees and for the new shipping is due. We charge a processing fee of 10% of the order value for all returns. Way I figure it, your always taking a risk ordering stuff from overseas. And complaining about the vendor should do this and the vendor should do that... Well they don’t have to abide by US consumer protection laws. As far as the post office is concerned, that’s been lackadaisical for years. I actually think things are starting to turn around a little bit, even with two post offices being burnt to the ground in my neighborhood recently.

This shipment was neither refused of unclaimed. It was undelivered, due according to the UPSP tracking record, to having been "insufficiently addressed".

Companies can, and do, write all sorts of unenforceable specious boilerplate into their agreements, the better to intimidate you, my dears. I've read and "x"ed out many, many paragraphs of bilge in the various contracts I've signed over the decades.

One other lesson I would take from this is never, ever, ever pay cash. If I had paid via money transfer I would have had no shot at getting my money back. By using my credit card I at least have a shot at getting my money back.

Really a shame. I was looking forward to trying some of the tobaccos I had ordered. It's just not worth the risk, nor the hassle for me to consider ever doing this again.

 

[hawky454]

Too bad we can't order tobacco from them.
Al Pascia has great shipping as well but no tobacco for us.

GQ used to be the best back in the day, did you get a chance to order from him? They had an amazing selection and awesome shipping rates. Once Glynn Quelch left they would no longer ship tobacco to the US. Glynn was okay with bending the rules, he listed the contents as “confectionary”. I miss doing business with him... he had some of the best prices on Euro tobacco.

 

[sablebrush52]

However, the American “customer is always right” approach has its shortcomings too.

I was in retail for a decade, working for a jewelry store to make money while I was in college, and afterward while I was getting my career started as a professional artist.
"The customer is always right" was our motto and it was on occasion very difficult not to douse some of the people who came into the store with gasoline and set them ablaze. The majority of customers were just fine to work with. But there were a number who clearly thought themselves entitled to behave like assholes. Regardless, I gave all of them excellent service. That was my job.

My boss once gave me some mild hell for spending about 20 minutes with a customer who left without purchasing anything. He said that he could tell at a glance that this customer was not going to purchase "a damned thing".

About a week later, that customer returned with his family, and in the course of an hour, spent over $100,000 on jewelry for his wife and daughter, an amount equivalent to about $500,000 in today's dollars for gold and gems. The customer told my boss that he was impressed with the attention that I had given him as much as the quality of our merchandise. Customer care pays dividends.

 

[sablebrush52]

GQ used to be the best back in the day, did you get a chance to order from him? They had an amazing selection and awesome shipping rates. Once Glynn Quelch left they would no longer ship tobacco to the US. Glynn was okay with bending the rules, he listed the contents as “confectionary”. I miss doing business with him... he had some of the best prices on Euro tobacco.

I never did any business with him, much to my regret. By the time I decided to give it a go, Glen had stopped selling tobacco to the US because of the legal risks involved.

 

[hawky454]

That’s one of the worst tobaccos I’ve ever smoked. Goes to show what forum groupthink can do for a blend. ?

Hahaha! It really is pretty nasty stuff, a friend sent me a sample to try to make me a believer. Everyone here knows I’m not afraid of aromatics and I love a lot of subtlety topped blends but to my taste, Rattray’s Exotic Passion is just a train wreck. What’s funny is I think it taste just like Reiners Professional Mixture which has been on the market far longer yet gets zero attention. BUT... like what ya smoke and smoke what ya like!

 

[sablebrush52]

Hahaha! It really is pretty nasty stuff, a friend sent me a sample to try to make me a believer. Everyone here knows I’m not afraid of aromatics and I love a lot of subtlety topped blends but to my taste, Rattray’s Exotic Passion is just a train wreck. What’s funny is I think it taste just like Reiners Professional Mixture which has been on the market far longer yet gets zero attention. BUT... like what ya smoke and smoke what ya like!

It's like dousing tobacco with Orange Julius. I like tobacco. I like Orange Julius. I don't like them mixed together.

 

[marlinspike]

One other lesson I would take from this is never, ever, ever pay cash. If I had paid via money transfer I would have had no shot at getting my money back. By using my credit card I at least have a shot at getting my money back.

This is the truth. I don't make many purchases from overseas now, largely because the cost of shipping has become so crazy, but I don't pay cash (or direct wire) for anything but an in-person purchase (and not always then!). Credit cards and Paypal, for their faults, at least offer a route for yourself as a customer to be made whole if a sale goes sideways.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

FWIW, here are Estervals terms:

​ international Returns Marked "Refused" or "Unclaimed": If you refuse to pay your local duty or tax, and the carrier bills TECON GmbH for the unpaid charges, we will subtract this amount and any return shipping fee from your return credit once the order is back. No refunds will be given for items that are seized at your local customs office or abandoned. There will likewise be no refund for damaged products on return orders that are marked "Refused" or "Unclaimed." We reserve the right to charge a 10% restocking fee for any international order that is returned to us because it was refused or unclaimed. The original shipping fee is non-refundable. Returns from outside the EU can not be refunded. Please note that return shipping charges apply to these returns. When re-shipping, a calculation of the return fees and for the new shipping is due. We charge a processing fee of 10% of the order value for all returns. Way I figure it, your always taking a risk ordering stuff from overseas. And complaining about the vendor should do this and the vendor should do that... Well they don’t have to abide by US consumer protection laws. As far as the post office is concerned, that’s been lackadaisical for years. I actually think things are starting to turn around a little bit, even with two post offices being burnt to the ground in my neighborhood recently.

Not necessarily true. The vast majority of EU companies that ship Cuban Cigars to the USA guarantee delivery with free replacement if confiscated.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Customer service in Europe is crap. When I walk into the Biergarten wearing my shorts, brightly colored t-shirt, and my basketball shoes, speaking loudly to everyone around me as we Americans tend to do, it’s perfectly reasonable for me to expect the staff to greet me with “guten tag, Herr American” and bring me a large Budweiser immediately, just like in America.

Just kidding of course I do think there is a distinct difference in customer service between the US and Europe generally, and the anecdotes in this thread are pretty accurate reflections of that difference. However, the American “customer is always right” approach has its shortcomings too. Anyone who has ever worked in a service job knows it can be kind of humiliating to have to defer to an obnoxious aggressive customer when you really want to tell them to fuck off... which I’m pretty sure you can do in Europe.

I think that "Customer is always right" philosophy has changed. I know it changed in my own company. I tell my people, "The Customer has the right to always think they're right, but they don't have the right to make unreasonable demands and act like obnoxious assholes". When a Customer reaches the stage of obnoxious, I usually get involved. My approach is to always give the Customer the benefit of the doubt but when irrefutable facts go against their "feelings", I take a firm stand when necessary. We have to "fire" a few Customers each year and I have no issue with that. We occasionally have a Customer that doesn't want to pay and attempts to extort us by threatening bad BBB or Google reviews. I refuse to be intimidated by that game and thankfully, we have such an overwhelming amount of good reviews, an occasional bad one doesn't harm us much.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I am with you on that. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. Sometimes it’s worth it to work with a customer even when they’re wrong. Either way, don’t be an ass. Then you’re just wrong whether yourethe merchant or customer.

My ex-uncle used to own an exclusive swimwear company that had a few retail stores. He was like the soup Nazi from Seinfeld and would toss people out of the student if they were a nuisance to him. It seemed reasonable to me at first, especially given the wealthy, entitled, arrogant clientele he served. I thought, “Great! He doesn’t take any huff from these pushy clients.” Unfortunately, that was how he ran his personal life, too, which is why he’s my ex-uncle - my aunt was his 3rd wife.

Guess the point is it doesn’t hurt to be nice (until it’s time to not be nice!).

There's a difference between being nasty and firm. It's near impossible at times, but you have to pragmatically hold your emotions at times no matter how nasty the Customer is. But that doesn't mean you have to cave to their unreasonable demands. I reach a point where I say we'll simply have to agree to disagree. After that, my response is this is why we have a judicial system and since we cannot seem to reach an agreement between us, we apparently will need to let a judge arbitrate it for us.

 

[marlinspike]

FWIW, I don't think Estervals much likes shipping out to U.S. customers (not that I blame them, in some ways). I was ready to place a substantial order with them fairly recently, but I detected more than a little resistance to some questions I asked them about ordering. Anyway, I put that order on hold - I'd like to try the HU tobaccos, but it'll wait.

 

[jguss]

Jesse, in the realm of unlikely but possible examine your credit card statements carefully for fresh charges from Estervals over the coming weeks/months. If I’m reading the terms of purchase quoted by craig61a correctly in theory by buying through their site you acknowledged their policy of levying additional fees on you in certain specific circumstances. I’m not interested In going down the rabbit hole of arguing legal rights. I’m just pointing out they have your credit card number on file. Again, I think this very unlikely but I’ve personally experienced worse. Jon

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

FWIW, I don't think Estervals much likes shipping out to U.S. customers (not that I blame them, in some ways). I was ready to place a substantial order with them fairly recently, but I detected more than a little resistance to some questions I asked them about ordering. Anyway, I put that order on hold - I'd like to try the HU tobaccos, but it'll wait.

There is at least one alternative. HU at Pfeifendepot

I ordered multiple times from this shop prior to Estervals. I switched to Estervals primarily because of price. I have no idea if dealing with Pfeifendepot at this point in time is any better than Estervals but I do plan to inquire. Paying more but at least receiving the package seems like the better deal to me.

 

[craig61a]

Not necessarily true. The vast majority of EU companies that ship Cuban Cigars to the USA guarantee delivery with free replacement if confiscated.

Yeah, companies used to do that... not aware of any that do that any more. Why? Because they were losing their ass after seizures of Cuban cigars ramped up in Chicago and other areas. Many of them used to re-ship, now they won’t ship to US.

And if you do find one that does and it gets intercepted you get a nice letter from Homeland Security. I don’t need to attract attention to myself that way...

 

[ofafeather]

There's a difference between being nasty and firm. It's near impossible at times, but you have to pragmatically hold your emotions at times no matter how nasty the Customer is. But that doesn't mean you have to cave to their unreasonable demands. I reach a point where I say we'll simply have to agree to disagree. After that, my response is this is why we have a judicial system and since we cannot seem to reach an agreement between us, we apparently will need to let a judge arbitrate it for us.

.

100% and assholes tend to reveal themselves in myriad circumstances that they are truly assholes.

 

[jguss]

I used to visit the Pfeifendepot when it was still owned by Gerd Jansen. It was a wonderful shop, cluttered, musty, packed with treasures and graciously presided over by Gerd and his wife. A few of Gerd’s tinned house mixtures were blended for him by Germain. Interesting Balkans, heavy but marvelous.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Yeah, companies used to do that... not aware of any that do that any more. Why? Because they were losing their ass after seizures of Cuban cigars ramped up in Chicago and other areas. Many of them used to re-ship, now they won’t ship to US.

And if you do find one that does and it gets intercepted you get a nice letter from Homeland Security. I don’t need to attract attention to myself that way...

There are those that still do. Well, at least I've heard there is (wink, wink). I've been fortunate enough to having never received one of the letters. Living in the Midwest, most of the shipments seem to enter the USA from airports not in the NE where most of the seizures seem to occur. I know people that have had at least 5 or more of the letters, doesn't seem to be a big deal. From what I can tell, the big problem is if you're trying to order large enough quantities for resale here.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

.

100% and assholes tend to reveal themselves in myriad circumstances that they are truly assholes.

In my experience, that revelation seems to occur after the work has begun and when it is time to pay up. The transformation mostly occurs after the work is complete and the final invoice is sent. There is the rare occasion where they exhibit asshole tendencies early on in which case, I encourage our staff to tell them we're overbooked and good luck with their projects. I have 2 hard and fast rules in my company. First is, we don't do business with assholes. Second is, there's only room in the company for one asshole and I'm already occupying that slot.