More Mold Identification

[greeneyes]

Sorry to tell you, but there are molds (fungi) that have fruiting bodies with a crystalline appearance. Unless you have some training in mycology (which I don't) and the facilities to examine the stuff for spores, you have no idea what it is. You're just guessing.

@gervais if you'd like to send me one the plugs I can examine it with a microscope in the lab, and stain the white material (after removal) for DNA, which would tell you if there are cells in there or if it's just mineral (salt) material.

My wife is the type that throws bread away when a little mold grows on it. I brush it off and toast it and eat it. Mold and other funky things are a natural part of beer and bread, they grow on our skin and in our mouths while we sleep. Fungal, bacterial, or not, activity of this type is not *spoilage* of the tobacco. I have lots of aged tobacco, some 70+ years old, and I can tell you with confidence that this stuff, whatever it is, is a natural and normal part of aging of plug tobacco. If the appearance is off-putting then don't smoke it but we're in you I'd trade or sell it to another less-squeamish smoker rather than throw it away.

For my part, just as I enjoy a nice brie with a mold crust, this is just another interesting feature of a delicacy that happens to be tobacco.

 

[dobbs]

@gervais if you'd like to send me one the plugs I can examine it with a microscope in the lab, and stain the white material (after removal) for DNA, which would tell you if there are cells in there or if it's just mineral (salt) material.

This is an amazing offer, I really hope it gets taken and acted on, thanks @greeneyes for your generosity. I'd offer to send some your way, but none of my pipe tobacco or cigars have any right now.

Opinions are nice and all, but facts are better.

-dobbs

 

[gervais]

@gervais if you'd like to send me one the plugs I can examine it with a microscope in the lab, and stain the white material (after removal) for DNA, which would tell you if there are cells in there or if it's just mineral (salt) material.

My wife is the type that throws bread away when a little mold grows on it. I brush it off and toast it and eat it. Mold and other funky things are a natural part of beer and bread, they grow on our skin and in our mouths while we sleep. Fungal, bacterial, or not, activity of this type is not *spoilage* of the tobacco. I have lots of aged tobacco, some 70+ years old, and I can tell you with confidence that this stuff, whatever it is, is a natural and normal part of aging of plug tobacco. If the appearance is off-putting then don't smoke it but we're in you I'd trade or sell it to another less-squeamish smoker rather than throw it away.

For my part, just as I enjoy a nice brie with a mold crust, this is just another interesting feature of a delicacy that happens to be tobacco.

If you have the tools to do it, if gladly send you a sample. For the sake of my curiosity. I am on your side with the "don't worry and smoke it" opinion. It doesn't look like the mold I typically see and associate with something that is bad

 

[greeneyes]

If you have the tools to do it, if gladly send you a sample. For the sake of my curiosity. I am on your side with the "don't worry and smoke it" opinion. It doesn't look like the mold I typically see and associate with something that is bad

I think I could turn this whole idea into a nice reference article though I probably wouldn't have time to do a deep dive into what species if microorganisms are present, similar to what had been done with exotic Belgian beers. I know this has been done for cigars in the past. I'll send you my address when I get home, though in all honesty I probably have lots of similarly mottled plugs in the cellar.

 

[greeneyes]

npod is a user here who posts some great macro photos of pipe tobacco crystals etc. on his Instagram account.

 

[canucklehead]

Here is some pictures (sorry low quality, phone pics in basement lighting) that show "plume" caused by a slightly heavy hand with casing, no microbial/fungal action involved:








In the second sample I watched the "plume" form within a few hours as it dried under a lamp.

 

[twoonefive]

After so many years of being told its plume and with retailers pushing old cigar stock on customers with the same line, many in the hobby believe in their hearts that it exists. Its like telling a child Santa isn't real. They just refuse to believe it even when presented with facts. Some just NEED it to be true.

If you want to smoke plume/bloom/mold/whatever CanuckleHead just posted, go for it and I hope its a good smoke!

 

[gervais]

After so many years of being told its plume and with retailers pushing old cigar stock on customers with the same line, many in the hobby believe in their hearts that it exists. Its like telling a child Santa isn't real. They just refuse to believe it even when presented with facts. Some just NEED it to be true.

If you want to smoke plume/bloom/mold/whatever CanuckleHead just posted, go for it and I hope its a good smoke!

Honestly, there isn't one single order of G&H flake/plug that hasn't arrived at my door without some form of "plume" on it, and I have ordered quite a bit. This plug was an extreme case for me though, which is why I posted the thread. I know for a fact that alot of people smoke it without issue, so what the hey

 

[twoonefive]

Honestly, there isn't one single order of G&H flake/plug that hasn't arrived at my door without some form of "plume" on it, and I have ordered quite a bit. This plug was an extreme case for me though, which is why I posted the thread. I know for a fact that alot of people smoke it without issue, so what the hey

Absolutely understand and that is an excellent point about G&H in paticular. It always has a different appearance than say the STG and MacBaren flakes and plugs.

Until the FOH studies came out I was a plume believer as well. New data can change a persons position on a topic.

 

[gervais]

Absolutely understand and that is an excellent point about G&H in paticular. It always has a different appearance than say the STG and MacBaren flakes and plugs.

Until the FOH studies came out I was a plume believer as well. New data can change a persons position on a topic.

So after reading the FOH study, I ask you this...

Do you now fear the Plume?

 

[woodsroad]

Sorry to tell you, but every experienced cigar smoker knows what plume/bloom is. It's the natural oils that extract from the tobacco with fine age. It appears as a fine dust, and is appreciated . Mold is a growth that attaches itself to the tobacco. As for crystals, I have no idea, I've never heard of that. My experience ends with over 20 years of cigar experience.

I'm an "experienced cigar smoker", and I don't "know" this. Experience is not synonymous with knowledge.

 

[Coreios]

I'm an "experienced cigar smoker", and I don't "know" this. Experience is not synonymous with knowledge.

I assure you Plume is not a conspiracy theory, or Government cover up.

 

[woodsroad]

I assure you Plume is not a conspiracy theory, or Government cover up.

Straw man arguments aren't going to help you. Even if they are really funny!
Wait for Twitter Files #36. I think that will have something to say about cigar patina.

 

[Andriko]

Sorry to tell you, but every experienced cigar smoker knows what plume/bloom is. It's the natural oils that extract from the tobacco with fine age. It appears as a fine dust, and is appreciated . Mold is a growth that attaches itself to the tobacco. As for crystals, I have no idea, I've never heard of that. My experience ends with over 20 years of cigar experience.

If it's the oils extracting themselves from the tobacco, then it should be easily testable, and would presumabley happen to all cigars, cigarettes and loose leaf. We could do experiments to see what draws these oils out, and could even extract them ourselves in the kitchen and study their properties to see if they correlate with the 'plume'.

Is there someone here with some chemistry knowledge?

 

[peteguy]

The sad part is almost every cigar vendor pushes the plume scenario with oils from within the sticks and it is an indicator of a finely aged cigar.

Dead mold or dry mold often listed as inactive, is probably is the stuff that just wipes off. I have always just brushed it off and smoked it. Maybe that is why I am falling apart in my later years. ")

 

[Coreios]

If it's the oils extracting themselves from the tobacco, then it should be easily testable, and would presumabley happen to all cigars, cigarettes and loose leaf. We could do experiments to see what draws these oils out, and could even extract them ourselves in the kitchen and study their properties to see if they correlate with the 'plume'.

Is there someone here with some chemistry knowledge?

It draws out naturally over time when the temperature and humidity are almost perfect. That's why its appreciated. Mold grows on the tobacco and sticks to it. Plume will brush off with ease.

It's not something new amongst cigar smokers. A good sign it's began is seeing a yellow cellophane wrapper.

 

[Andriko]

It draws out naturally over time when the temperature and humidity are almost perfect. That's why its appreciated. Mold grows on the tobacco and sticks to it. Plume will brush off with ease.

It's not something new amongst cigar smokers. A good sign it's began is seeing a yellow cellophane wrapper.

It should be repeatable - what are the perfect temperature and humidity levels? If I put 100 cigars in such conditions, surely they will all 'bloom'. If not, why do only some do it and not others? Do only some cigars have these oils? It is also worth noting that mold and fungus grow in humid environments also.

And once again, if these oils exists, than it should be a simple matter do put a cigar through a process to extract them chemically - we could then see if they posses the same properties as the 'bloom'. For example, extracting pure caffeine from coffee beans produces a white powder, and can be done in your kitchen relatively simply.

I would hazard a guess that the yellow on the cellophane is tobacco stain.

 

[yaddy306]

I had previously posted a link on the forum for an actual scientific paper published in an actual journal that attempted to identify bloom on cigars. I wish I had saved a copy, as the link doesn't work anymore and the domain is for sale.

Anyhow, that paper concluded that the white stuff on cigars was not "sugars" or "mold" but mostly potassium nitrate, ammonium chloride, organic oils, etc. deposited on the surface of the cigar.

Efflorescence: efflorescence occurs when water migrates through a material, carrying salts to the surface. These salts are then deposited on the surface when the moisture evaporates, leaving behind a crystalline-like structure.

You can differentiate between mold growth and efflorescence by spraying some water on the suspected substance. If it dissolves quickly, it's likely inorganic salts. If it doesn't, it might be mold. Mold growth will mat down a bit, so microscopic examination might be required to see this.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[Coreios]

It should be repeatable - what are the perfect temperature and humidity levels? If I put 100 cigars in such conditions, surely they will all 'bloom'. If not, why do only some do it and not others? Do only some cigars have these oils? It is also worth noting that mold and fungus grow in humid environments also.

And once again, if these oils exists, than it should be a simple matter do put a cigar through a process to extract them chemically - we could then see if they posses the same properties as the 'bloom'. For example, extracting pure caffeine from coffee beans produces a white powder, and can be done in your kitchen relatively simply.

I would hazard a guess that the yellow on the cellophane is tobacco stain.

It's 70% 70F., mold can't grow in those conditions.

 

[Coreios]

It's 70% 70F., mold can't grow in those conditions.

I forgot to mention. Not all cigars are capable of Plume. Mainly Maduros Plume. You can have the same bundle of 100 sticks and 2 may plume or none. The leaf used on that exact cigar has to have a certain amount of oil in it. Nicaraguan wrappers are naturally oily and most of those don't have enough oil.