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warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
12,353
18,556
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
I think the fact that few schools are teaching students how to question what they see and hear should be included also.
The difference between 35, 40 years ago and today is that the methods of manipulating people are much more varied, but that's all.
People are simply ill-equipped to challenge what they are told. Many teachers feed the students dogma and will not abide questions.
 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
21,003
50,318
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
I think the fact that few schools are teaching students how to question what they see and hear should be included also.

People are simply ill-equipped to challenge what they are told. Many teachers feed the students dogma and will not abide questions.
Dogma, disinformation, misinformation, "theories" etc, etc, are rampant. To some degree they always have been, but the means of spreading the manure was a lot more labor intensive before the Internet.
Powerful tools have been released with which we are ill equipped to engage.
 
Dec 3, 2021
5,555
48,309
Pennsylvania & New York
Now that it seems possible that @woodsroad and @Winnipeger could be related, I can just imagine that with a few different key decisions going way back to Poland many, many, years ago, woodspeg might be playing Wayne Shorter covers on trumpet, piano, or guitar, and Winniroader could be taking photos inspired by André Kertész before founding the Standard Tobacco Company of Manitoba. What if?
 

Puffaluffaguss

Part of the Furniture Now
Jul 30, 2021
702
2,230
33
The City Different
Some of what you refer to in the lottery I don't see as privilege, such as genetics, when you live, it's the cards that you're dealt. It's the cards that everyone is dealt. You don't get to pick them. And some might confer privilege or destruction, such as who you know and where you live. The end is the same. We're here and then we're dust.

"Who you know" carries only so far, and if you can't earn the benefit, it will go away, just not necessarily with the same possibly catastrophic results for others with less resources. How about "who you are friends with". Is that privilege, and if so, what's wrong with that? Why is the notion of privilege necessarily a bad thing in and of itself? Isn't there the matter of context?

For example, I was elected to membership in the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. While I haven't been nominated for an EMMY, several members asked me if they could sponsor me for membership, and after viewing my credits, a committee, none of whom I knew, voted unanimously to make me a member. That gives me the privilege of voting for EMMY awards and attending the EMMY ceremony. It allows me to watch all of the nominated programs on either the Academy site or through a special login to watch material on pretty much any streaming platform during the nominating period so that I can make an informed decision. It allows me to help talented college students to get internships. It does zip nothing to help me land a job. How is that a bad thing? I think it's kind of cool that my colleagues wanted to do this on my behalf.

As for divisions in the US? They're primarily driven by the twin gods of Fear and Grievance, historically very powerful forces. And because we have powerful tools for spreading Fear and Grievance, it's spread very efficiently, bathing everyone with its malign stink. Put out a statement, back it up with nothing or made up stuff and the majority of people will believe it without question. According to Pew Research, about 30% of the population gets its news from social media:
and that gets spread around to their friends. "I heard", "They're saying" are hardly hard data points.
Early in my career, I worked on hundreds of commercials and saw up front and close how powerfully persuasive suggestion works. The difference between 35, 40 years ago and today is that the methods of manipulating people are much more varied, but that's all.
Yes finally, "Context" is so hard to determine when you read somebody's thoughts and stories weather it be a txt message or forum board posts. Speaking directly to somebody is the way our brains are ment to receive this information. We cannot nearly attempt to get our points across or understood in a few paragraphs that take a few minutes at most to think about, rationalize, and then try to attempt to project this out into the world. To me this thread has taught me alot about Canada, America, laws, our outlook on how we live as people of a 1st world nation and more. Maybe we all didn't see eye to eye on certain things, and maybe didn't get our perspective across as we wanted, but it will teach somebody, something, someday I hope lol😅
 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
12,916
21,622
SE PA USA
When is the rally?
Are we having a rally?

I just need to hang out with a few thousand people who think like I do. Or maybe I can just think like they do. Whatever. We can wave some flags, get real worked up about stuff and then go get a frappacino or something.
 

Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
I'm reasonably aware of the dynamics in Canada over the last several years and it is essentially the same there
No, I believe the U.S. is special. "Canadian exceptionalism" and "American exceptionalism" have drastically different meanings. Our societies are not running along the same track, largely due to the differences between our immigration policies (or lack thereof as the case may be), as well as our vastly different histories, political systems, geography, population density, etc. etc.

Our politics is boring. It's the opposite of the U.S. We had no revolution. No civil war. We don't vote for our judges. We don't have a president (thank god). We don't vote for our Prime Minister. He or she is appointed by the Crown. Political contributions are regulated. The money influencing our political system is a minuscule fraction of that found in the U.S. This is a good thing.

Our prescription drugs are price-controlled and generally much cheaper than in the U.S. 🤔

We have universal health care.

We have a higher average life expectancy. Lower infant mortality rates, and a slightly older population on average.

Does social media have the ability to mind-fuck individuals on both sides of the border? Sure. But there are structural and cultural differences that make Canadian society distinct from American in many many ways. Not to mention our killer beavers and poutine. YMMV.
 

sardonicus87

Lifer
Jun 28, 2022
1,396
14,203
37
Lower Alabama
In America, we don't elect anyone either. That's just all for show, the 1% are the ones that actually run everything. All our politicians are bought and paid for, we regular citizens just get the illusion of choice.

America is like, fighting with your neighbor because your boss gave you a hard time at work... and actually believing it's the neighbor's fault rather than the boss.

Actually, it's kind of like "The Purge"...
 

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
10,053
16,123
No, I believe the U.S. is special. "Canadian exceptionalism" and "American exceptionalism" have drastically different meanings. Our societies are not running along the same track, largely due to the differences between our immigration policies (or lack thereof as the case may be), as well as our vastly different histories, political systems, geography, population density, etc. etc.

Our politics is boring. It's the opposite of the U.S. We had no revolution. No civil war. We don't vote for our judges. We don't have a president (thank god). We don't vote for our Prime Minister. He or she is appointed by the Crown. Political contributions are regulated. The money influencing our political system is a minuscule fraction of that found in the U.S. This is a good thing.

Our prescription drugs are price-controlled and generally much cheaper than in the U.S. 🤔

We have universal health care.

We have a higher average life expectancy. Lower infant mortality rates, and a slightly older population on average.

Does social media have the ability to mind-fuck individuals on both sides of the border? Sure. But there are structural and cultural differences that make Canadian society distinct from American in many many ways. Not to mention our killer beavers and poutine. YMMV.
Yeah, understood...I wasn't really referring to any of that though. I'm talking about certain issues that are generally common across the western world in recent years. And a general opposition between national sovereignty and globalism.

As for "exceptionalism" I find that term rather amusing...definitely not talking about that, whatever it's supposed to mean. Our society (and "system") is exceptionally screwed up I guess...so there is that.
 

Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
Yeah, understood...I wasn't really referring to any of that though. I'm talking about certain issues that are generally common across the western world in recent years. And a general opposition between national sovereignty and globalism.

As for "exceptionalism" I find that term rather amusing...definitely not talking about that, whatever it's supposed to mean. Our society (and "system") is exceptionally screwed up I guess...so there is that.
I agree with you on all that. But I think "the issues that are generally common across the western world" may just be another of the continuing cycles of history. People have been complaining about the breakdown of society since Socrates, and surely much longer.

I don't expect any of you to spend an hour listening to a CBC podcast, but this one called The Never-Ending Fall Of Rome is a good example of some Canadians' ambivalent, tempered views on the topic of "society," and it's supposed breakdown.
 

geoffs

Starting to Get Obsessed
Sep 21, 2022
219
825
Ontario
At the risk of stepping in the muck and getting into an argument it is my opinion that it is just this "ambivalence" that is contributing to the decline of life in Canada. I've been here for half a century and the country is all but unrecognizable to the place where I grew up. As the country gets dragged in this direction and the state propaganda arm convinces us all that it's business as usual, maybe people need to start calling it out and fighting to maintain their freedom and way of life. One thing I respect about Americans is that they sure as hell ain't ambivalent about their freedom, and nor should we be.
(In true Canadian fashion, I'm sorry if this offends, but for the first time in my life I'm seeing people leaving this country for a better life elsewhere and I'm sad watching it unfold.)
 

Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
At the risk of stepping in the muck and getting into an argument it is my opinion that it is just this "ambivalence" that is contributing to the decline of life in Canada. I've been here for half a century and the country is all but unrecognizable to the place where I grew up. As the country gets dragged in this direction and the state propaganda arm convinces us all that it's business as usual, maybe people need to start calling it out and fighting to maintain their freedom and way of life. One thing I respect about Americans is that they sure as hell ain't ambivalent about their freedom, and nor should we be.
(In true Canadian fashion, I'm sorry if this offends, but for the first time in my life I'm seeing people leaving this country for a better life elsewhere and I'm sad watching it unfold.)
I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't personally feel my freedom being impinged that much. Rather than people leaving, I see lots of new people immigrating here. If you're talking about the "brain drain" where talented, smart people move to the U.S. to make more money, that will always be.

Different regions of the country certainly feel different too. When I lived in Ottawa, you could cut the animosity between French and English with a knife in the National Capital Region. (I worked for the government, meaning the Canadian Forces.) I don't sense any of that where I live. Is it there? There certainly are a lot of French and English people here, but I don't think there are any Séparatistes in St. Boniface.

I do feel ambivalent about social issues. Not that I'm optimistic. I'd have to be a blind idiot to think the world is going down the "right" path. But all these problems are existential, not essential.

You said:
the country is all but unrecognizable to the place where I grew up.
That's exactly right. I feel the same, but that's because I'm old. Doesn't everybody eventually feel that way?
 

Cloozoe

Lifer
Sep 1, 2023
1,047
20,973
That's exactly right. I feel the same, but that's because I'm old. Doesn't everybody eventually feel that way?

I'm 72; I assume that qualifies as old? If so, then nope, not everybody.

Interestingly enough, I've noticed that a disproportionate number of people who came of age in the '80s are oblivious, self-righteous, and seem to have been born old.
 
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Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
I'm 72; I assume that qualifies as old? If so, then nope, not everybody.
OK. Maybe not unrecognizable, but it's understandable that people become more critical of society as they get older, because society changes over time. No?
a disproportionate number of people who came of age in the '80s are oblivious, self-righteous, and seem to have been born old.
I was born in '77 so I'm of the generation you're talking about there, more or less. I think the generation that came of age in the '90s are the real self-righteous bunch, but you know, it's probably only, like, a loud 15% who Tweet a lot that are "social justice warriors" and think everyone else is ignorant. Most people are normal.

Obviously you wouldn't consider me "old". But it's how you feel. Do you qualify? You tell me. I definitely feel old in some ways. I'm 40 years older than my daughter. A lot of things have happened in the last 40 years. The way she and her generation are going to turn out is a big mystery. Anyway, the "seem to have been born old" statement is interesting. Why do you say that?
 
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Cloozoe

Lifer
Sep 1, 2023
1,047
20,973
Winni, old pal, I can't answer your questions without getting overtly political, and I'm probably already on thin ice. I'm going back to WAYS where it's mellow and friendly and pipe-smoking-centric. All the best.