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woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,833
16,361
SE PA USA
They sure are! I'm just glad lots of other people have the opposite opinion. Take the internet for example, over 90% runs on Linux which was developed by talented and gifted people who selflessly contribute to free, open source software. They could develop the features they need and keep it to themselves, but they don't, and we all benefit.
If anyone gave anything away in the world of Linux, they did so on their own volition. I have donated my talents to non-profits and causes that I believe in for over 30 years, on my own volition. I have also turned down similar requests from persons and organizations who could damn well afford my services, and/or wouldn't appreciate what I do if it was given away for free.

What I take exception to is your attitude that the McNeils "should" give their IP away. That's public shaming. And it is promoting the bassackwards notion that people who have (talent) must give it away to people who have not (talent). Just more "equity" bullshit.
 

cigrmaster

Lifer
May 26, 2012
20,249
57,282
66
Sarasota Florida
If it were up to me I would have sold the MC name and formulas for every dime I could. But that is me, I am a capitalist through and through. When I sold my last business in 2017, I didn't disclose any of the problems my plaza had. As far as I was concerned do your own due diligence, don't trust me because I will rob you and in the end I did rob the guy. Screw him if he never hired an engineer or an inspector, not my problem that 7 of the 11 hvac units on the roof needed serious work. Or that the roof was leaking like a sieve. Hey you snooze you loose I say. When I bought the place I had inspectors and engineers all over the place before I bought anything.
 
Jan 28, 2018
13,108
137,855
67
Sarasota, FL
I'd suggest you do the same. Read up on GPL. Yes, there are now paid versions of linux, but there are many more open source versions that rely heavily on volunteers for support. Simple fact is, without linux and contributions from volunteers, the internet as you know it wouldn't exist.

Here's a good quote from the GPL wiki to support my "bullshit" story:


For your reading pleasure: History of free and open-source software - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_free_and_open-source_software
Not disputing that but if you think he didn't have a bigger picture plan that's resulted in his exceptional wealth, you brain stem is detached. So don't go on about all this selfless crap, it simply is rarely true.
 

Inspired Idler

Starting to Get Obsessed
Dec 4, 2019
163
299
Denver, CO
If anyone gave anything away in the world of Linux, they did so on their own volition. I have donated my talents to non-profits and causes that I believe in for over 30 years, on my own volition. I have also turned down similar requests from persons and organizations who could damn well afford my services, and/or wouldn't appreciate what I do if it was given away for free.

What I take exception to is your attitude that the McNeils "should" give their IP away. That's public shaming. And it is promoting the bassackwards notion that people who have (talent) must give it away to people who have not (talent). Just more "equity" bullshit.
Let's go back to my original comment: "Anyone know if the McNeil's are mentoring anyone or documenting their processes for future generations?" Where did I imply that they SHOULD give it away? Is it not uncommon for knowledge to be passed down among artisans? My intention wasn't to say that it's their obligation to share anything, only a curiosity.

I've enjoyed the spirited debate here. It just feels to me like all of us are looking at an industry on life-support. Some of us are sitting on the sidelines waving the white flag, bizarrely celebrating the loss of a marquee manufacturer. Then there are some of us who feel like asking what can be done to preserve the rich history and tradition that is evaporating before our eyes. Maybe it is too late...
 
Jan 28, 2018
13,108
137,855
67
Sarasota, FL
Let's go back to my original comment: "Anyone know if the McNeil's are mentoring anyone or documenting their processes for future generations?" Where did I imply that they SHOULD give it away? Is it not uncommon for knowledge to be passed down among artisans? My intention wasn't to say that it's their obligation to share anything, only a curiosity.
I think you did more than imply it in your post shown directly below on the third page of this thread. Our perhaps your beliefs are to be confused with curiosity. Remember, it's better to be silent and thought a fool than to continue to type and remove all doubt.

anyone else. I respect everyone's opinion on this matter. My personal belief is that if you have a talent or gift, it is much better to share it with the world than keeping it to yourself.
Hell, I also don't have any clue about the actual reasons this information won't/can't be shared with other blenders, and frankly it's not my business. It's just my wishful thinking that it would be so future generations could have a shot at something better than I experienced myself.
 

Inspired Idler

Starting to Get Obsessed
Dec 4, 2019
163
299
Denver, CO
I think you did more than imply it in your post shown directly below on the third page of this thread. Our perhaps your beliefs are to be confused with curiosity. Remember, it's better to be silent and thought a fool than to continue to type and remove all doubt.
So you interpret my positive opinion of sharing knowledge and "wishful thinking" as a declaration the they have an obligation to share something. Got it.

I'll add that I've tried to be respectful throughout this whole thing while you've spouted off about my "bullshit" and "detached brain stem". Classy guy...
 
  • Haha
Reactions: woodsroad
Jan 30, 2020
1,932
6,369
New Jersey
I've enjoyed the spirited debate here. It just feels to me like all of us are looking at an industry on life-support. Some of us are sitting on the sidelines waving the white flag, bizarrely celebrating the loss of a marquee manufacturer. Then there are some of us who feel like asking what can be done to preserve the rich history and tradition that is evaporating before our eyes. Maybe it is too late...
Far from on life support, there’s a thousand commercial blends to buy right now until your heart is content. Do not lament those that closed, but indulge into the wide expanse of what’s currently out there. There’s more tobacco and pipes options out there than ever. Go get them.
 
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Reactions: hoosierpipeguy

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,833
16,361
SE PA USA
I think you did more than imply it in your post shown directly below on the third page of this thread. Our perhaps your beliefs are to be confused with curiosity. Remember, it's better to be silent and thought a fool than to continue to type and remove all doubt.
Beat me to it.
Gosh these people get testy when facts are involved.
 
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Reactions: hoosierpipeguy
Alright everybody, this pretty much wraps up this month's "Why did McClellands Not..." discussion. Everyone go and hone your arguments, add a few more jokes, remember, it's all about entertainment. Maybe pick up a few more researched articles, and ohhhh, in 29 more days, we'll do this all again. See ya there...

Movie Leonardo Di Caprio GIF - Movie Leonardo Di Caprio Handsome - Discover  & Share GIFs
 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,833
16,361
SE PA USA
So you interpret my positive opinion of sharing knowledge and "wishful thinking" as a declaration the they have an obligation to share something. Got it.

I'll add that I've tried to be respectful throughout this whole thing while you've spouted off about my "bullshit" and "detached brain stem". Classy guy...
Being "respectful" while espousing a wholly unrespectable attitude?
 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,835
45,545
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Rattray's is a personal favorite - possibly my top manufacturer based on weight in my cellar. I do wish they'd accompany the HOTW/OG/BC trinity with a straight Virginia, but then I wouldn't buy as much of the 3 mentioned above.

I think what twists some peoples' panties here re: this conversation (which seems to occur monthly) is the dinosaurs think everyone wants old McClelland with the old labels and for everything to be like it was in the early 2000s. Maybe some want that, but what I usually read is people asking about the reproducibility of the techniques, which the dinos always read as "exact copy of McClelland." There's a key distinction in which question is being asked that gets glanced over every time this comes up.
Dino here. Techniques can be reproduced. There's millions of oil painters, sculptors, dancers, writers, actors, playwrights, etc, etc. They have access to the same tools, develop new ones, teach each other techniques, etc, etc. Yet 99% of what they do is at best mediocre or just plain shit. Techniques get you only so far and instinct and innate physical abilities are what makes the difference.

What the Dinos are complaining about is IP theft and/or IP misappropriation. And what this Dino complains about is perpetration of a fraud and/or theft of intellectual property, a practice that has become much more widely accepted socially because it's now so effortless to do so. You want the unearned advantage of access to the McNeil's work to exploit as you see fit. Screw how they feel about it.

The McNeils built on what others had done before them. Go do the same. If techniques are so easily reproduced, it should be a snap, and if they're not, then work at it.

Personally, I have no issue with sharing the techniques I've developed with others who can benefit. I spent more than a decade hauling my tired old ass to teach at an Industry vocational school after a long days work, so that I could teach other people new skills that would help them adapt to a changing technological environment and help them stay employed. I mentor my staff on the shows I work on.

But that's MY choice. What the NcNeil's choice is, is THEIR business and nobody else's.
 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,835
45,545
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
As I mentioned, there are many other commercial manufacturers of perique besides LaPoche. Russ explored some of them in his RO series. Wait, didn't I just type this out a minute ago, ha ha. Not all blends that say perique came from La Poche.
Percy Martin is still going strong, but selling their product to a different market.

My understanding of the RO Perique series is that it was a partnership between Russ and Mark, showcasing leaf grown in different districts, but processed into Perique at La Poche.
 
Jul 17, 2017
1,720
6,357
NV
pencilandpipe.home.blog
Something that gets left out of this equation is how much work it would have been to train someone else.
If your grandma was ready to retire and an angry mob of consumers, who didn't know her, didn't care about her, only her products, kept harassing her and saying she shouldn't have retired until she dedicated a bunch of extra effort and time to mentor and train a successor, you'd view this question a lot differently. Asking people who are ready to retire from the workforce why they didn't go to great lengths and effort to give away or sell what they'd built just means you're viewing McClelland as a product and not the people who developed and stewarded it.
I also doubt anyone would be saying the right thing to do was make sure grandma passed on her recipes and techniques for the benefit of the general public. We're not talking about a cure for a disease of some world changing tech that would harm humanity if it disappeared. Tobacco blenders retired. Let them go and buy McClelland on the secondary market. There's as much as you can afford out there regularly. It won't be that way forever though.
 
Jan 28, 2018
13,108
137,855
67
Sarasota, FL
So you interpret my positive opinion of sharing knowledge and "wishful thinking" as a declaration the they have an obligation to share something. Got it.

I'll add that I've tried to be respectful throughout this whole thing while you've spouted off about my "bullshit" and "detached brain stem". Classy guy...
Were you born in the 80's? Asking for a friend.
 
Jan 28, 2018
13,108
137,855
67
Sarasota, FL
So you interpret my positive opinion of sharing knowledge and "wishful thinking" as a declaration the they have an obligation to share something. Got it.

I'll add that I've tried to be respectful throughout this whole thing while you've spouted off about my "bullshit" and "detached brain stem". Classy guy...
Your words are pretty clear and speak for themselves. Sorry I introduced a few facts that dispute your arguments. Respect is earned not given. Unfortunately, you seem to feel entitled so I doubt you understand that.
 
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