Manhunt in Montana

[The Benedictine]

First of all, this dude was crazy before the Army. You can't "catch" schizophrenia and bipolar from adult trauma. He already HAD these illnesses, but trauma could have exasperated it. 99% of combat veterans who have PTSD do NOT become violent.

This is true. Schizophrenia usually presents around the early 20's (some are diagnosed in younger individuals but rarely). PTSD isn't just for soldiers but can cause violent outbursts but it is very rare. I've treated many of people with these diagnoses and the only violence that is prevalent is self harm. I am also treated for a mental disorder. It's what got me into psychology in the first place. That and a Master's in philosophy doesn't make you much money.

 

[Briar Lee]

I don't know.

But you can count "mass shootings" per year with a couple of fingers.

The national media will never forget to tell you they happened, that stuff excites a certain type of people.

Even if it was 250 per year, and it's not... The only answer would be, stay strapped or get clapped. Limiting guns wouldn't be the answer.

The NRA preaches only to the choir.

It’s effective as hell. They repeat their lies enough they think it’s gospel.

Here is the truth: This year almost 500 times or so, there will be a call to the police where four people have been shot, not counting the perp, in a public setting.




But there are about 340 million of us.

Mass shooters might only kill a couple of airplanes full of people spread out over a year. The gun death toll from the 500 or so mass shootings will only be about 1% of total gun deaths.

And only a few of us, devout NRA members, have more guns than we can count. A tiny percentage of us own a lion’s share of all the guns.

We gun owners are going to wake up someday like I was standing in line to see the Corpse Flower.

In five hours, thousands upon thousands of people, I was the only smoker.

There’s only so much sinning and depravity the general public will stand, you know?.

 

[telescopes]

Here is the truth:

The last person someone should look to for "the truth" or even religious instruction is a lawyer. Especially one that doesn't necessarily "shoot straight" by using proxy arguments rather than being honest about their own political leanings. Just be honest - state your true point of view and let the chips fly where they are.

 

[Briar Lee]

This is true. Schizophrenia usually presents around the early 20's (some are diagnosed in younger individuals but rarely). PTSD isn't just for soldiers but can cause violent outbursts but it is very rare. I've treated many of people with these diagnoses and the only violence that is prevalent is self harm. I am also treated for a mental disorder. It's what got me into psychology in the first place. That and a Master's in philosophy doesn't make you much money.

The true schizophrenic is rare and usually harmless, in my years of watching humanity in legal difficulties.

It’s not said, but he likely was on SSI or VA benefits. We’d have heard about his arrest record if he had one. He’d been in that bar countless times.

Friday he took a rifle.

His rifle was identical to the one he trained on except it was semi automatic only.

Xxxx
In the U.S., a 2023 study estimated that
approximately 3.7 million adults (1.8% of the adult population aged 18–65) have a lifetime history of a schizophrenia spectrum disorder, with about 2.4 million (1.2%) experiencing active symptoms in the past year. The estimated annual prevalence of schizophrenia is around 1%, affecting roughly 2.5 million adults. This chronic and severe neurological brain disorder involves cognitive and emotional disturbances, interfering with a person's ability to think clearly, manage emotions, and relate to others.

Xxxxx

We are not going to build asylums to warehouse two and a half million souls.

And if they are free they can and will gain weapons.

 

[greeneyes]

This is true. Schizophrenia usually presents around the early 20's (some are diagnosed in younger individuals but rarely). PTSD isn't just for soldiers but can cause violent outbursts but it is very rare. I've treated many of people with these diagnoses and the only violence that is prevalent is self harm. I am also treated for a mental disorder. It's what got me into psychology in the first place. That and a Master's in philosophy doesn't make you much money.

You beat me to it. Suicide is a form of violence, and the incidence of suicide in veterans with at least one diagnosis of PTSD is double. Source [LINK]

 

[telescopes]

To clarify, on a forum, which isn't a court room, most people expect to hear what the poster actually thinks about a subject, not what some mythical group may think or what some mythical group may do. It's difficult for respondents to carry on a productive conversation when one of the participants isn't honest about their own thoughts on the matter.

I already know the answer because we have discussed this at great length previously, but a question you should answer directly, Van, is this: Do you believe that barring legal restrictions such as a felony, do you believe that the average US citizen should have a right to purchase, own, or have access to guns such as AR 15s and AK 47s without restrictions because you believe that it is a constitutional right you don't just support but absolutely believe is essential to American Democracy - this includes people who live in low places, have a generally bad disposition, and don't care to work but are happy to take handouts, or belong to far right religious institutions?

I put all that in there because the real question of how we respond to gun violence is predicated on a response to that answer. If the answer is a strong yes, then the conversation centers around how we make our country safer while not restricting access to guns. If the answer is no, then the conversation centers around who gets to keep them and who doesn't. Straight forward and direct.

 

[Briar Lee]

The last person someone should look to for "the truth" or even religious instruction is a lawyer. Especially one that doesn't necessarily "shoot straight" by using proxy arguments rather than being honest about their own political leanings. Just be honest - state your true point of view and let the chips fly where they are.

It is true that I can find favorable truths for hire.

Such as—-

● Drowning is the single leading cause of death for children ages 1-4 and the second
leading cause of injury-related death for children up to age 14.


● There is an average of 4,012 unintentional drowning deaths per year.


● Drowning remains among the top four causes of death from age 54 and up.


● The U.S. experiences an average of 11 fatal drownings per day and an average of 22


non-fatal drownings per day.● Nearly 40% of drownings treated in emergency departments require hospitalization,


transfer, or further care (compared with 10%for all unintentional injuries). Outcomes of


morbidity include brain damage, other serious outcomes, and long-term disability.


● Drowning costs the U.S. Economy an estimated $53.22 billion annually.


● Drowning is fast and silent. It can happen in as little as 20-60 seconds.


● Above the age of 1, nearly 80% of drowning deaths involve males due to increased exposure to water, risk-taking behaviors, and alcohol use.


Drowning Statistics on Children:


● 88% of child drownings occur with at least 1 adult present.


● We lose 11 school buses worth of children to fatal unintentional drowning per year, with the average school bus seating 80 students.


● For every child that dies from drowning, another 7 to 8 receive emergency department


care for non-fatal drowning. Almost 70% of drownings of young children occur during non-swim.


● Two out of three drowning incidents that take place in the home occur in a bathtub.


● 23% of child drownings happen during a family gathering near a pool.

——-

The deaths in the 500 or so mass shootibgs each year are a fraction of drownings.

——

The traditional nature of fallacies means there are many that have Latin names. This is a list of known fallacies with their Latin: Ad Hominem: see Attack the person Ad Antiquitatem: see Appeal to Tradition Ad Baculum: see Appeal to Fear Ad Hominem: see Attack the person Ad Hominem Tu Quoque: See Personal Inconsistency Ad Ignorantium: see Argument from Ignorance Ad Metum: see Appeal to Fear Ad Misericordiam: see Appeal to Pity Ad Nauseum: see Repetition Ad Novitam: see Appeal to Novelty Ad Numeram: see Appeal to Common Practice Ad Populum: see Appeal to Common Belief orBandwagon Ad Ridiculum: see Appeal to Ridicule Ad Verecundiam: see Appeal to Authority Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc: see False Cause Dicto Simpliciter: see Accident Ignoratio Elenchi: see Missing the Point In Terrorem: see Appeal to Fear Non Causa Pro Causa: see False Effect Non Sequitur: See Affirming the Consequent, Denying the Antecedent or Missing the Point. Petitio Principii: see Begging the Question Plurium Interrogationum: see Many Questions Post Hoc: X follows Y. Therefore X is caused by Y. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc: see Post Hoc Reductio ad Absurdum: A false X is silly, so X is true. Secundum quid et simpliciter: see In a Certain Respect and Simply

——-

The National Rifle Association, of which I’ve been a life member for 35 years and a member for over fifty, uses every logical fallacy ever cataloged to allow me to keep my guns.

Which will work until the public gets sick of it, which hopefully will be after I’m gone.

I’m also for the death penalty.

My side ain’t doing so well there, you know?

Our problem as gun owners is we are defending our right to own the main battle rifle of the free world (minus a selector switch) and a plastic striker fired pistol designed by a Nazi soldier to kill people in war.

ArmaLite - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Gaston Glock - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Over long time, this isn’t the side to place your bets.

 

[Sig]

The NRA preaches only to the choir.

It’s effective as hell. They repeat their lies enough they think it’s gospel.

Here is the truth: This year almost 500 times or so, there will be a call to the police where four people have been shot, not counting the perp, in a public setting.

View attachment 408435


But there are about 340 million of us.

Mass shooters might only kill a couple of airplanes full of people spread out over a year. The gun death toll from the 500 or so mass shootings will only be about 1% of total gun deaths.

And only a few of us, devout NRA members, have more guns than we can count. A tiny percentage of us own a lion’s share of all the guns.

We gun owners are going to wake up someday like I was standing in line to see the Corpse Flower.

In five hours, thousands upon thousands of people, I was the only smoker.

There’s only so much sinning and depravity the general public will stand, you know?.

These numbers are very misleading.
They include gang on gang violence, police shootings, and justified self defense.
Banning guns cannot work....period.
The vast majority of guns used in crime are either stolen, or brought in from Mexico.
In fact, just in the last 6 months with stricter border security, the influx of unserialized firearms from Mexico has plummeted. Border agents are finding less, police are finding less, and truckloads have been seized.
The MSM will not tell people that the feared "ghost guns" are NOT being built by lone wolf antisocials in their parents basement. They are coming from Mexico. The amount of people building firearms in their garage are laughabley small. Its like when the MSM talks about the KKK being a huge force of dangerous militias. In fact, there are MAYBE 2000 klan members nationwide. 95% are over 70 and disabled.
The MSM and politicians have people afraid of the millions of "ghost guns" being manufactured in private homes. In fact, home firearm building is sn extremely niche hobby that very few people do. And the ones who are building them, are using high end parts and creating $6000 BBQ guns.
Back on track .......
Did you know that school shooting statistics include closed down schools, parking lots of closed schools, and police shootings on school grounds? Without those, we wouldn't be talking about these incidents.
Again, the VAST majority or mass shootings are gang on gang shootings. That over 600 in 2023 was actually 7, yes, 7 non gang related, police, or justified incidents where 4 or more were shot.
That is a HUGE difference.
And the number that dictates a mass shooting has fluctuated over the years. Obama made it from 6 to 3. His administration eventually went to 4 due to backlash.
They say we have the most MS in the world. Some countries use much higher numbers to constitute a mass shooting. So, a country with only 5 mass shootings may look different when you realize they consider 8 or more shot in an incident as a MS. While if they used the number 4 like us, the number of MS would me much higher.
Anyways, numbers dont always agree. The Rockefeller Center is often used in courts as a reliable source. They say there have been 139 MS in the US from 2000-2023 if my memory serves me right. That is an average of 6 per year. That's a far cry from 600+ often quoted by MSM. The RC does not include gang shootings legal self defense or police shootings like most other sorces do.

 

[prairiedruid]

I suppose we can just fire the person compiling the statistics; that should solve the problem.

 

[The Benedictine]

And if they are free they can and will gain weapons.

It's highly unlikely. Most people with PTSD from gun violence (military service or otherwise) usually stay away from firearms as it can be identified as a trigger. Those who do purchase a firearm are far more likely to inflict self harm to themselves than to others. This man planned this even if it was spur of the moment. A psychotic break would happen immediately and not lasting to go to a place to shoot it up. Assigning blame due to a psychiatric illness is very ill informed.

The average schizophrenic is medicated and lead normal lives. There is no need to lock up a subset of the population just because of a diagnosis. Medications continue to help individuals. If the individual decides to stop treatment, which is usually monitored by a physician with bloodtests to see if they are within therapeutic levels of medication, the physician is legally required to inform the proper authorities if they believe the patient in question is a danger to themselves or others.

 

[Sig]

I suppose we can just fire the person compiling the statistics; that should solve the problem.

Absolutely.
Keep firing them until an honest one can be found.
The problem is, the stats are not in one place. If an agency doesn't report their statistics, they aren't included. Its not mandatory for police agencies to report. And many that do report, report incorrectly.
Its really groups like the Rockefeller Center and the Center For Crime Prevention who go out and gather the information jurisdiction by jurisdiction.

 

[Sig]

To clarify, on a forum, which isn't a court room, most people expect to hear what the poster actually thinks about a subject, not what some mythical group may think or what some mythical group may do. It's difficult for respondents to carry on a productive conversation when one of the participants isn't honest about their own thoughts on the matter.

I already know the answer because we have discussed this at great length previously, but a question you should answer directly, Van, is this: Do you believe that barring legal restrictions such as a felony, do you believe that the average US citizen should have a right to purchase, own, or have access to guns such as AR 15s and AK 47s without restrictions because you believe that it is a constitutional right you don't just support but absolutely believe is essential to American Democracy - this includes people who live in low places, have a generally bad disposition, and don't care to work but are happy to take handouts, or belong to far right religious institutions?

I put all that in there because the real question of how we respond to gun violence is predicated on a response to that answer. If the answer is a strong yes, then the conversation centers around how we make our country safer while not restricting access to guns. If the answer is no, then the conversation centers around who gets to keep them and who doesn't. Straight forward and direct.

The 4473 form that everyone fills out when buying a firearm from an FFL is pretty good at keeping guns away from those who are disqualified.
Seeing that the extreme vast majority of "gun violence" is committed by people who get the guns illegally, stopping them at the point of purchase is impossible.
No matter how many felonies you have, or how crazy you are, stealing a gun or buying from the trunk of a car cannot be stopped.
Guns are here, violent people are here, this will not change. Deciding whether you want to be a sheep or a sheep dog may be your only option.
The average police response time in the US is 10-22 minutes depending where you live. If you are ACTIVELY being assaulted, you need to get your phone out, dial 911, then wait 10-22 minutes. Whether the bad guy has a gun, a knife, a stick, a brick, their fists.....I say it will be nearly impossible to get help from the police. Now say there are 4 young guys with guns. OK, fight them off, get your phone out, dial 911, wait 10-22 minutes. That's not gonna happen.
Again, the guns are here, billions of them. Regulating them is impossible.
Here in NYS you cannot own an intact AR15. But you can own a Ruger mini 14. What's the difference?
They both hold 30+ round magazines, they both fire just as fast, using the same .223/556 ammo. The difference is the AR looks scary, but the Mini 14 looks like grandpa's deer rifle.
The anti gun crowd knows this. Gun control isn't about guns, its about control. They know that if the public knows that grandpa's 30-06 is many times more powerful than your average AR, they lose them on the spot.
Good people need to stand up to bad people, and criminals need to be held accountable. With these 2 things, "gun violence" drops 90+%.

 

[telescopes]

The 4473 form that everyone fills out when buying a firearm from an FFL is pretty good at keeping guns away from those who are disqualified.
Seeing that the extreme vast majority of "gun violence" is committed by people who get the guns illegally, stopping them at the point of purchase is impossible.
No matter how many felonies you have, or how crazy you are, stealing a gun or buying from the trunk of a car cannot be stopped.
Guns are here, violent people are here, this will not change. Deciding whether you want to be a sheep or a sheep dog may be your only option.
The average police response time in the US is 10-22 minutes depending where you live. If you are ACTIVELY being assaulted, you need to get your phone out, dial 911, then wait 10-22 minutes. Whether the bad guy has a gun, a knife, a stick, a brick, their fists.....I say it will be nearly impossible to get help from the police. Now say there are 4 young guys with guns. OK, fight them off, get your phone out, dial 911, wait 10-22 minutes. That's not gonna happen.
Again, the guns are here, billions of them. Regulating them is impossible.
Here in NYS you cannot own an intact AR15. But you can own a Ruger mini 14. What's the difference?
They both hold 30+ round magazines, they both fire just as fast, using the same .223/556 ammo. The difference is the AR looks scary, but the Mini 14 looks like grandpa's deer rifle.
The anti gun crowd knows this. Gun control isn't about guns, its about control. They know that if the public knows that grandpa's 30-06 is many times more powerful than your average AR, they lose them on the spot.
Good people need to stand up to bad people, and criminals need to be held accountable. With these 2 things, "gun violence" drops 90+%.

I agree with you. I am uncertain as to just why Van won’t state his real beliefs on this subject - which is a shame because it gets to the core of what’s really wrong with our society. Solving problems with violence is the issue. Some countries - armed with gun owning rates higher than america, do a much better job at self control than the USA. I am thinking of Switzerland per se. Violence and the propensity to engage in violence is the real issue.


Let me amend myself. The U.S. has a slightly higher gun ownership rate (30-34 per 100) than Switzerland (estimated 20-25 per 100).

 

[Briarcutter]

Good people need to stand up to bad people

You can say that again!

 

[prairiedruid]

Violence and the propensity to engage in violence is the real issue.

Yep this is a big part of it. Going to high school in the 80s many of us had shotguns behind the seat of our trucks so we could go pheasant hunting after school. Maybe we were raised differently or had different priorities but society has definitely changed. What is the solution? I don't know, I just try to raise my kids/stepkids/grandkids with a sense of being responsible for their actions and choices.

 

[BingBong]

It is true that I can find favorable truths for hire.

Such as—-

● Drowning is the single leading cause of death for children ages 1-4 and the second
leading cause of injury-related death for children up to age 14.


● There is an average of 4,012 unintentional drowning deaths per year.


● Drowning remains among the top four causes of death from age 54 and up.


● The U.S. experiences an average of 11 fatal drownings per day and an average of 22


non-fatal drownings per day.● Nearly 40% of drownings treated in emergency departments require hospitalization,


transfer, or further care (compared with 10%for all unintentional injuries). Outcomes of


morbidity include brain damage, other serious outcomes, and long-term disability.


● Drowning costs the U.S. Economy an estimated $53.22 billion annually.


● Drowning is fast and silent. It can happen in as little as 20-60 seconds.


● Above the age of 1, nearly 80% of drowning deaths involve males due to increased exposure to water, risk-taking behaviors, and alcohol use.


Drowning Statistics on Children:


● 88% of child drownings occur with at least 1 adult present.


● We lose 11 school buses worth of children to fatal unintentional drowning per year, with the average school bus seating 80 students.


● For every child that dies from drowning, another 7 to 8 receive emergency department


care for non-fatal drowning. Almost 70% of drownings of young children occur during non-swim.


● Two out of three drowning incidents that take place in the home occur in a bathtub.


● 23% of child drownings happen during a family gathering near a pool.

——-

There would be a lot fewer drowning deaths if there were enough bellows kits to go round.

 

[Sig]

Violence and the propensity to engage in violence is the real issue.

Yep this is a big part of it. Going to high school in the 80s many of us had shotguns behind the seat of our trucks so we could go pheasant hunting after school. Maybe we were raised differently or had different priorities but society has definitely changed. What is the solution? I don't know, I just try to raise my kids/stepkids/grandkids with a sense of being responsible for their actions and choices.

Society has definitely changed, but culture has not. Where I live everyone has firearms, most have many firearms. Absolutely zero crimes committed with guns, zero.
The closer you get to Buffalo (im 90 miles South of Buffalo), the more violence there is.
But it doesn't seem to be due to increased population, its culture.
We are not allowed to talk about it. And you know the old saying, "you cannot solve a problem until you admit there is a problem".
From many court cases I've been involved in, a huge issue is thug culture. Im probably going to get in trouble for this, but its a verifiable fact.....6% of the US population commits 51+% of the violent crime.
If you eliminated the gun death statistics from the 5 US cities with the highest gun deaths, "gun violence" would fall drastically.
People are shocked to learn that the USA is ranked 25th in gun deaths worldwide. Not #1 like the MSM and antis say...again verifiable.
As long as inner city youth think its cool to be strapped, nothing will change. We are told that the inner city gun violence is due to poverty.
Well, why are MUCH more poverty ridden areas in coal country not ravaged by gun crime?
Yes, drugs are out of control in McDowell Co WV, one of the poorest counties in the US, but gun deaths are very low. Same goes for many impoverished counties in the US.
The US does NOT have a gun problem, we have a culture problem.
But again, we CANNOT talk about it.

 

[telescopes]

But again, we CANNOT talk about it.

Yeh, we can. And yes, we need to. We can have this conversation, but it gets sticky when some idiots start derailing the conversation with political and racial nonsense. Yes, politics and socially driven issues certainly impact how people are able to discuss it, but it doesn't help when a few fools make it all about that. I think your facts are in order and speak for themselves. We as a society have to ask the question, "what is it about our culture that we are content to let certain groups of citizens remain in a stagnate situation rather than do what it takes to bring the American dream to every town and village?"

There is an inequality in America - and it begins with the lowering of standards and expectations for and within our citizenry. That's my two cents.

 

[Briarcutter]

We as a society have to ask the question, "what is it about our culture that we are content to let certain groups of citizens remain in a stagnate situation rather than do what it takes to bring the American dream to every town and village?"

There is an inequality in America - and it begins with the lowering of standards and expectations for and within our citizenry. That's my two cents.

I think we as a society sadly fall into the "not my problem" mode. Too many turn their heads and think if it doesn't directly effect me, I'm not going to worry about it. The problem is that evil is patient, before you know it, those things we turn our back to, do effect us directly.

 

[Briarcutter]

I just read this...what in the world?? That's like saying the Army didn't pursue the enemy because they were armed.

"Law enforcement officers briefly pursued Brown in that vehicle, but pulled back when they realized he was most likely armed, Knudsen said. Brown was not in the vehicle when law enforcement finally arrived."