Kaywoodie Dating

[uberam3rica]

After listening to one of the radio shows, it got me interested in putting a date on my Kaywoodie. On the show, Brian said that two digit shape codes place the pipes in the 50s, 60s, or 70s. Mine has a two digit shape code, so its at least from the 70s. Can any of you place it at a more specific date? It's a Kaywoodie Prime Grain, and is marked 51.
Heres a picture

 

[durham270]

Sorry I cannot help with your question however I have to say that's an awesome looking pipe. Happily awaiting reply's too.

 

[radio807]

I'm a Kaywoodie fan and I found this site that has a lot of information about dating those pipes: http://pipephil.eu/logos/en/logo-kaywoodie.html. You'll come to learn that for the most part Kaywoodies can't be dated precisely down to a specific year, but you can get pretty close in some cases. Good luck. Nice pipe, BTW. Kaywoodies are pretty good smokers.

 

[uberam3rica]

Kaywoodies can't be dated precisely down to a specific year,

I figured, I just wanted to get as close as I could

 

[uberam3rica]

I checked out the link you gave me, but it didn't mention Prime Grain anywhere, which is what my pipe is stamped

 

[lifeon2]

http://kaywoodie.myfreeforum.org/
this site will be a little more helpful,the prime grain was made from 77-89 there is tons of kaywoodie info there as well as info on the other s.m. frank lines.

 

[radio807]

this site will be a little more helpful

Thanx for the link. The link I noted was the most comprehensive site that I had found to date. I'm glad to have another resource.

 

[uberam3rica]

Thanks! I'll check it out.

 

[numbersix]

I also have a Kaywoodie. Unfortunately, it's not always cut and dry when dating Kaywoodies. The seller said mine was form the '50s, but after a lot of research, it appears mine is from the 70s, but I couldn't get any more detailed than that.
Here's another link to try: http://chriskeene.com/kwg-toc
Good luck Unber - hope you can do better than I was with mine.

 

[jerrys12]

I just purchased an estate Kaywoodie Prime Grain # 13 and I am trying to date it.

 

[fnord]

I buy lots of estate pipes and somebody tossed this out on the forum several years ago which I promptly added to the collecting notes I carry on my iPhone.
Many thanks to the original poster.
"Kaywoodie
Serial numbers:
2 numbers indicate 1930s-1950s

3 numbers indicate 1970s-80s

4 hole stinger Kaywoodies are from 1955 or earlier

3 hole stingers were from 1955 until today
And More:
Check the Shape Numbers. If the pipe has a 4-digit shape number, the pipe is probably of "pre-1936" vintage. If the pipe has a 4-digit shape number and does not have the threaded fitment, it is probably from before 1925.
The pre-WWII Kaywoodies had elongated white cloverleaf logos and large screw-in fitments (with the possible exception of the pre-1925 and "export" Kaywoodies, which had no fitments).
Some of the pre-1936 Kaywoodies were stamped (on the shank) with a cloverleaf around KBB. Sometime between 1936 and 1947, the better pipes were marked with a black cloverleaf inside a white dot. However, because many of the pipes in the 1968-69 catalog still show this type of logo, the black-in-white logo merely indicates a "post 1936" vintage.
The cloverleaf logo: the round logo (black cloverleaf in white circle or white cloverleaf in black circle) was first used in 1937. Up until the late 40's this logo was used on all of the upper grades pipes. The concomitant use of the plain white cloverleaf and the disk inlaid logo continued until the early 80's.
Up until the late 1940's/mid 50's, the logo was on top of the stem. After that the logo was moved to the side of the stem.
Current (Italian-made) Kaywoodies have the "white outline" logo."
Dunno if this helps or muddies the waters.
You can always reach out to one of our resident Kaywoodie experts, Gary - used to be known as Irish around here. Gary is to Kaywoodie what our Ejames is to Dr. Grabow. Both are mavens for their specific brands and both are just two of the best guys any of us will ever be fortunate enough to know.
Fnord

 

[sablebrush52]

If the pipe has a 4-digit shape number and does not have the threaded fitment, it is probably from before 1925.

Actually, before 1929. Kaywoodie used the same stinger shape as the Synchrostem, but it wasn't threaded to join to the shank in a precise line up. The Synchrostem dates to 1929 and received its patent in either 1931 or 1932. It's been so long since the Kaywoodie Compendium was taken down that I'm beginning to forget the fine points.

The pre-WWII Kaywoodies had elongated white cloverleaf logos and large screw-in fitments (with the possible exception of the pre-1925 and "export" Kaywoodies, which had no fitments).

With the arrival of the Flame Grain in 1937, which also ended the 4 digit era, the elongated clover was joined by the black clover in a white circle. The Flame Grain became the new top grade. The pre-1925 Kaywoodies did have fitments. These were called Wintubes and were an aluminum tube just like the Dunhill innertube.

Some of the pre-1936 Kaywoodies were stamped (on the shank) with a cloverleaf around KBB.

This stamp was used prior to Kaywoodie being formally set up as a distinct company under the KB&B umbrella. The stamping was dropped in 1932-33 when Kaywoodie moved into its new factory. (Still forgetting those fine points...)

If the pipe has a 4-digit shape number and does not have the threaded fitment, it is probably from before 1925.

Before 1929.

3 hole stingers were from 1955 until today.

3 hole stingers made their appearance with the Flame Grain in 1937.
Did I forget to mention that I was also a Kaywoodie collector and studied their history just as I did Barling?

 

[xrundog]

I have to disagree with you on the statement that 3-hole stingers were used on early Flame Grains. I've had a number of early Flame Grains with 4-hole stingers. Flame Grain Meerschaum lined pipes as well. Maybe you are thinking of the black in white clover logo. That came out with the Flame Grains.

Check out the above mentioned Kaywoodie forum on stinger dating.

Mid to late 50s was when Kaywoodie started using 3-hole stingers. And they still had 4-hole stingers on hand and were using them. So with late 50s pipes there is a lot of overlap. What looks like an early 60s pipe with a nylon stem and a wide fish tail bit might still have a 4-hole stinger. They used what they had at the factory. There is no hard cut off date for when the 4-hole stingers stopped being used. But it appears that by the early 60s they were out of them.

 

[sablebrush52]

Mid to late 50s was when Kaywoodie started using 3-hole stingers. And they still had 4-hole stingers on hand and were using them. So with late 50s pipes there is a lot of overlap.

'Fraid not. 3 hole stingers were in use MUCH earlier than 1955. I've had early Flame Grains with both three and four hole stingers. 4 hole stingers were phased out after 1948. God I miss the Kaywoodie Compendium. So much great documentation lost and nothing even close to it available on line.

 

[xrundog]

Well Bill F. is willing to dig into what's available at the Kaywoodie Factory and answer questions on the Kaywoodie Forum. That's where the info in the Compendium came from.
Here's a quote from Bill in answer to a question about why the conversion to the 3- hole was done.
"I think the answer is as simple as switching suppliers. In 1955 S.M. Frank bought the Kaywoodie and Yello-Bole companies. We were already buying machined aluminum parts for the Medico line. All being made by Milford Automatucs in Hartford. I assume we just gave them all of the combined aluminum parts business in return for discounted prices. The change to the 3 hole design occurred in the mid 1950's."

 

[owen]

I have a 1961 kaywoodie price list which shows prime grain at $8.95

 

[sablebrush52]

Well that's interesting, because I had an earlier dating from the Compendium. Wish I still had those Flame Grains.

 

[pitchfork]

So if you have a 4-hole stinger, does that mean it's from mid 50s or earlier?

 

[xrundog]

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm busting your chops sablebrush. Not my intent. Flame Grains are tough to date. They started with 2 digit shape numbers. They started with the black in white clover. And Flame Grain was stamped over Kaywoodie until maybe the 60s. Right? So the stinger and the stem is pretty much all there is to go by for late 30s, 40s and 50s pipes. I have a lot of Kaywoodie meerschaums and it is pretty much the same deal. Except the really early ones had plain black or white clovers depending on the stem. And a case can help. No stamps on 'em though.
Pitchfork, yeah, that's a rough rule of thumb.

 

[pitchfork]

Thanks, xrundog.