Justin Trudeau

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Dec 24, 2012
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We get the same nonsense down here. A "draconian cut" is defined as not increasing spending on welfare, the arts, whatever, enough. So it is not a cut as any intelligent person would use the term, it is an increase that is called a cut. It is never enough, so again we get to the point of running out of other peoples' money.
Don't get me wrong, infrastructure spending is a real issue and both Canada and the US have massive infrastructure deficits embedded in their economies (as do many countries in the industrial world).
However, even Trudeau's plan wouldn't even make a dent in the Canadian infrastructure deficit. It would literally be a rounding error. Moreover, he wants to shut down the proposed Northern Gateway pipeline project, which would have been one of the largest infrastructure projects in the western world, and all financed by private money.
The real solution is to encourage private infrastructure spending, primarily through the tax system. If I have a criticism of Harper, it's that he didn't do enough to encourage private infrastructure spending. Trudeau however seems to view infrastructure spending as only a government problem, but the reality is that the Government simply doesn't have the financial ability to really tackle the issue through direct Government spending, at least assuming he isn't willing to run $100 billion annual deficits (but then again, maybe he is!).

 
Dec 24, 2012
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drezz, I can't explain that chart from Macleans. Hard to imagine as Martin only had a cup of coffee as PM. By the way, I voted for Martin and would take him in a nanosecond over the current clown leading the Liberals.

 

drezz01

Can't Leave
Dec 1, 2014
483
6
I definitely do not want Government involved with the arts
I think it depends on their involvement. Many artists rely on grants to produce their work. Canadian artists and content are also buoyed by the CCA and CRTC. Some may say that this is unnecessary expenditures. I think our media and culture would be vastly more americanized than it already is without these efforts. In my discipline, architecture, the CCA provides programs such as the Prix de Rome to support emerging talent, the fruit of which has contributed to global conversation about architecture.
This is a polemic topic I am sure but one that I believe in to my core. I believe a gov't should not simply manage the finances of a people but provide them with a service and enrichment of their lives as well. This is a philosophical point so it certainly isn't right by any measure (like most aspects of politics) but it is certainly what I feel is right.
Hard to imagine as Martin only had a cup of coffee as PM
:rofl: I'd be surprised if he made it to the bottom of the cup.

 
Dec 24, 2012
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drezz -actually that chart appears to show the average annual "change" in spending. So it seems to show that in his one year+ in office Martin increased spending by a material amount over what Chretian was spending per capita. Harper, in turn, increased per capital spending each year versus the previous year, on average, by the level indicated. So not sure it tells you much, other than that Martin thought Chretian was underspending on programs. If anything, the chart indicates that program spending was not in fact reduced under Harper's reign.

 

deathmetal

Lifer
Jul 21, 2015
7,714
36
I believe a gov't should not simply manage the finances of a people but provide them with a service and enrichment of their lives as well.
I would prefer to delegate that to culture instead of bureaucrats.
Many artists rely on grants to produce their work.
Private grants are a good idea too. That's how many of the great symphonies came into being.

 

drezz01

Can't Leave
Dec 1, 2014
483
6
Private grants are a good idea too. That's how many of the great symphonies came into being.
This is true. Big oil can get vilified quite easily by some but they also tend to be sponsoring most of the cultural events going on in my city right now.
The following is tangential -- feel free to skip... Probably skip it...
The private vs public debate is an interesting one. More projects in my neck of the woods are being funded via Private Public Partnerships (P3's) recently: from bridges to a new swath of 18 elementary schools. Essentially a private entity funds, constructs and maintains the building or asset which is then leased to the public. After some time, ~30 years, the asset is transferred to the public.
This project procurement method has its positives and negatives but primarily it transfers risk from the public centre to the private. It also allows political parties to claim they have produced all of these assets for no cost - instead it just becomes a small line item in the books for 30 years. It works for the private sector because it is an excellent long term investment with very little risk assuming they meet construction deadlines.
These projects have proliferated recently, largely due to Mr Harper's $14-billion Building Canada Fund which mandates that any municipal project worth over $100M must be reviewed by P3 Canada - and will likely be procured via the P3 method.
As I've said, the P3 method does some things very well, but some things very poorly. For instance the schools that are being produced are the same model replicated on 9 different sites. Some of those sites are very cramped, some serve a different demographic and some have different student loads - but they are all getting the same school. There is also very little incentive to invest in value added by design. The schools are already being criticized for looking more akin to prisons than elementary schools - probably not a great environment to foster the minds of the next leaders of our country in. There are also contradicting studies on whether P3 projects are more or less apt to finish 'on time and on budget'.
Pluses and minuses, as an architect and an individual I would like to see individual responses to site and program that will use this funding and value added by design to provide the best environment for students. As a tax payer it is nice to know we are not burdened with as much risk though I do get worried when divisive tactics are used with P3 projects to say we are getting something for nothing - when really we are paying more for it over the scope of 30 years and if these assets fall apart the day after we inherit them 30-years-plus-one-day from now it will be that future administration burdened with the task of replacing them.

 

drezz01

Can't Leave
Dec 1, 2014
483
6
Peck - Yeah I'm not sure how useful that chart is. Or the article it is from. It concludes with:
In sum, if you measure sound fiscal management by tight control of program spending, you probably judge Jean Chretien as our best fiscal manager in recent years. If you measure it by running surpluses (regardless of economic conditions) and reducing net debt you probably regard Paul Martin as top fiscal manager among recent Prime Ministers.
Is being tough on spending and deficits the best measure of sound fiscal management? Economists would argue that fiscal management is a complex matter and that it hard to judge performance based on a few summary measures.
But as you said it does show that federal spending continued to increase in the Harper era. I'd still like to see a breakdown of expenditures though, Chretien v Harper. I'm not sure what we'd find but it would be interesting. There is a lot of rhetoric that is unfounded in politics. I must admit I don't have a fantastic mind for numbers but it is interesting nonetheless.

 

deathmetal

Lifer
Jul 21, 2015
7,714
36
Essentially a private entity funds, constructs and maintains the building or asset which is then leased to the public. After some time, ~30 years, the asset is transferred to the public.
This seems like a good method to me, with the caveat you expressed: the potential problem is that it is not market-responsive. No substitute for having astute people in charge at a local level.

 

pruss

Lifer
Feb 6, 2013
3,558
373
Mytown
There is no chance in hell Trudeau would support a pure proportional representation system, since he would only have ended up with a minority government if one had been in place. In fact, he would only have gotten 18 more seats than the Conservatives in this election if we had such a system. Recall that he only achieved 39.4% of the popular vote.
This is my fear, too, Peck. That having tasted a majority government with just under 40% of the popular vote, the Liberal government might be a little less likely to be interested in a move to the MMRP system. I hear you on the desire for majority governments versus coalition or minority governments. I guess I'd rather have the latter if it was a truer representation of what the electorate wants in terms of policy making and legislation.
The only unfortunate part about this statement is that it is simply not true.
Federal program spending in 2014-15 stood at 13 per cent of GDP, a shade higher than the 12.6 per cent in 2005-06, when Harper bounced the Liberals from office.
Infrastructure spending also rose by a far larger multiple.
I see what I did there. My apologies. I did not intend to infer that overall spending in these areas was decreased under Harper, but that there were notable and specific examples of programs which were either cancelled outright or which were allocated funds which were never received; which as a body of work has lead to dissatisfaction with where the Conservative government did and did not spend in these areas. My biggest area of concern here is around the cuts to staff scientists and research in Ministries like Environment and Fisheries and Oceans, Arctic research and climate change commitments.
I'd enjoy reviewing the infrastructure numbers, Peck, any links you could provide would be welcome reading on this end. I guess I've seen the development in ridings like Tony Clement's where the government spent massively in advance of the G8 summit, and the federal support for the Pan Am games. Both of which left lasting infrastructure, but public questions about how the priorities were established.
To be fair, I understand the need to cut spending to be able to afford corporate incentives to help build a business case for establishing industry in Canada. I also understand the potential impact of an increase in corporate tax on the business community in Canada and what that might mean for revenue.
The real solution is to encourage private infrastructure spending, primarily through the tax system. If I have a criticism of Harper, it's that he didn't do enough to encourage private infrastructure spending. Trudeau however seems to view infrastructure spending as only a government problem, but the reality is that the Government simply doesn't have the financial ability to really tackle the issue through direct Government spending, at least assuming he isn't willing to run $100 billion annual deficits (but then again, maybe he is!).
You and I are absolutely on the same page here. It may not be my only criticism of the Harper government, but I agree that public/private partnerships are definitely part of the solution. I also believe that Trudeau's inability to see this (yet?) is a function of his own maturity, and perhaps the elitism of the Liberal machine which advises him. That machine scares the shit out of me too, for what its worth.
-- Pat

 
May 31, 2012
4,295
38
I've read that Trudeau supports plain packaging for tobacco.
Is it likely that he will impose stricter baccy regulations?
It'd be ironic given his stance on the green leaf.
:|

 

plugugly

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 9, 2015
291
41
I have a lot of respect for yall up there in Canada. What was your saying awhile back? "America-done right!"

I wasn't surprised when Canadian middle class wealth increased. I was impressed that it did so when your currency was so very strong against the dollar! And at a time of economic concentration of wealth (Wallmart in small town America snuffs out family small businesses. Robots replace thousands of auto workers etc.etc.) An increase in MIDDLE CLASS wealth? Outstanding!

Sound banking laws. Abundant natural resources. Good beer!

You didn't go into hock to buy cheap Chinese goods. Best damn current trade balance accounts out there. Hummmmmm.

If you can't beat 'um, I say join 'um! Why don't we just partner up and make it just one big fine country? The United Provence's of North America! What do you think my northern neighbors?
Plugugly

 

drezz01

Can't Leave
Dec 1, 2014
483
6
This seems like a good method to me, with the caveat you expressed: the potential problem is that it is not market-responsive. No substitute for having astute people in charge at a local level.
Yes it is certainly not pure evil but there are many drawbacks. Another is that these jobs typically draw the attention of out-of-province project co's (financiers and a construction consortium). Often they bring their own sub-contractors who are also from out of province. -- Essentially, a project funded at both levels of the government ends up letting a lot of money leave the province. Can local consortium bid? Of course - they tend to lack the experience to navigate the specifics of the P3 process though and typically don't make it past the bidding stage in my experience. P3's are relatively new in this province, so outside firms from ON, BC & AB have a higher success rate at this time. This is further exacerbated by our foot-in-mouth premier promising all 18 schools would open the same year. We simply do not have the labour force for it in our province so, by necessity, out of province subs will be utilized.
I've read that Trudeau supports plain packaging for tobacco - It'd be ironic given his stance on the green leaf.

I'm hoping someone can chime in on this! I actually have no idea what his stance is on tobacco, strangely enough.
If there's interest in discussing it and it's not deemed too far off topic I'm all for talking about legalization of marijuana. I am not a user of it but I support the legalization and eventual regulation and taxation of it for various reasons, mostly economic. Maybe I've already poked the bear too much.

 

pruss

Lifer
Feb 6, 2013
3,558
373
Mytown
Why don't we just partner up and make it just one big fine country? The United Provence's of North America! What do you think my northern neighbors?
It's not you, it's me. Let's just be friends.
:wink:
-- Pat

 

drezz01

Can't Leave
Dec 1, 2014
483
6
^^^ :rofl:
I was going to make some comment about how well things in the eurozone are going but I like your response better Pat.

 

elbert

Part of the Furniture Now
Mar 10, 2015
604
31
Why don't we just partner up and make it just one big fine country? The United Provence's of North America! What do you think my northern neighbors?
Gondor has no Queen--Gondor needs no Queen!

 
Dec 24, 2012
7,195
463
Why don't we just partner up and make it just one big fine country? The United Provence's of North America! What do you think my northern neighbors?
Uh . . . but that would mean we would get Justin Bieber back . . . after all that work unloading him on you. For that, I do apologize.

 

pruss

Lifer
Feb 6, 2013
3,558
373
Mytown
Why don't we just partner up and make it just one big fine country? The United Provence's of North America! What do you think my northern neighbors?

Uh . . . but that would mean we would get Justin Bieber back . . . after all that work unloading him on you. For that, I do apologize.
Don't forget that means Celine would also be returning... Nothing is worth that.
-- Pat

 

beerandbaccy

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 22, 2015
298
225
UK
more like favourable trade terms for member countries, which for Canada have probably been easily superseded by the trade deal with the EU.
Also we can take part in the Commonwealth Games without you pesky Americans winning all the medals!! :lol:

 
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