Irish Freestate - Hallmark - Patent Era?

[PipeIT]

@paulfg when you mentioned the placement of the letter, I don’t understand what you mean?

I looked at this even under a magnifying glass, I can truly see no bottom of a P worn off. It still actually looks like the bottom of a D curving around from the bottom left to right.

Here’s the best close up I could take.

@Ahi Ka mentioned to me, how these dates are for the Assay Office, and could of been certified/inspected in 1919, but was later sold, which I mentioned as possibly 1922... hmm ?

The only thing I can think, are the differences from a D & P the upper left tails of the letters sticking out. On Petersonpipenotes a D has a longer tail than a P. hmm ?

I’m in email with Peterson, I sent them this pic.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Ahi Ka]

@PipeIT by later sold I mean later used. The date letter for the band will be correct, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been fitted to a pipe a few years later (how few I’m not sure).

it looks like the 1919 D to me. But i trade loewes and Peterson’s to collect Orliks, which while a noble pursuit, really does call my logic into question. And I’m totally happy to go along with the insight of those who have actually held many a Peterson in their hands.

also, don’t forgot, if it’s a d or a p, or even if it had no silver males at all, your Pete is from the golden age bro. Just Smoke that little fucker ✌?

 

[PipeIT]

This pipe has P-Lip...

That could also place it as Patent Era, even though it’s not stamped on it?

 

[Ahi Ka]

This pipe has P-Lip...

That could also place it as Patent Era, even though it’s not stamped on it?

View attachment 152585

View attachment 152586

No. That would mean even new Peterson’s could be placed in the patent era. Unfortunately Peterson continued to use the Plip stem long after their patent for it expired.

 

[PipeIT]

@Ahi Ka I hear ya, it is old regardless, I’m just interested to learn is all. It’s quite fun, I feel like Lara Croft! LOL ?

Raiding that Peterson tomb!

 

[paulfg]

@paulfg when you mentioned the placement of the letter, I don’t understand what you mean?

I looked at this even under a magnifying glass, I can truly see no bottom of a P worn off. It still actually looks like the bottom of a D curving around from the bottom left to right.

Here’s the best close up I could take.

@Ahi Ka mentioned to me, how these dates are for the Assay Office, and could of been certified/inspected in 1919, but was later sold, which I mentioned as possibly 1922... hmm ?

The only thing I can think, are the differences from a D & P the upper left tails of the letters sticking out. On Petersonpipenotes a D has a longer tail than a P. hmm ?

I’m in email with Peterson, I sent them this pic.

Thanks everyone!



View attachment 152579

Having seen this better picture I have to say that the bottom of the letter appears to be complete, therefore a D even though the surround (flower shape) is buffed out at the bottom.
My comment ref the stamping being towards the top of the surround (what i was trying to convey was the letter not being in the centre of the surround) is also probably not correct either

 

[PipeIT]

Look again Lads! ?

I just realized, wasn’t paying attention, but all three hallmark stamps alignment is horizontally the same, and the hallmark symbol, I don’t know what this is called that the letter sits inside, you can make out the outline of it on the bottom left.

So this letter, if you look closely at it, is siting centered inside, and there is no room for this to be a letter P, when you consider the horizontal alignment, because if it was a P, the top circular part of the P would need to be smaller to fit inside the symbol, as the P would need to be smaller.

This letter takes up the entire space, it’s clearly a D, given it’s size.

I sent an email to Peterson, wasn’t sure if they would reply, this is what they said;

—————
Having examined your images along with internal research, I can confirm that you are the owner of a very historic pipe.

Our liver bands, once taken into the factory are immediately hallmarked. Therefore, the silver band on your pipe was created in 1919, during Ireland's War of Independence.

However the bowl was assembled during the Irish free state era.

Therefore, your pipe combines two very crucially significant era's during Ireland's history to Independence, I am very jealous!

I hope this response helps!

Kind regards

Hope
—————

I then replied back asking if ‘liver bands’ meant silver?

This was their next reply to me;

—————
Hello,

My apologies.

Bands, in the case of yours which is silver, are stamped from the moment they arrive into the factory - however can remain there for sometime before being assembled to a pipe.

Therefore, the band of your pipe was created in 1919, hence the hallmark 'D', however was later assembled onto a free state edition bowl. Allowing your pipe to garner immense historical significance as the parts were created during two separate era's of Irish History.

Best wishes

Hope
—————

 

[Ahi Ka]

I told you it was a slippery slope bro. Watch out Pete collectors, Scott’s got the itch!

 

[PipeIT]

I told you it was a slippery slope bro. Watch out Pete collectors, Scott’s got the itch!

But you see, looking at the picture what I’m talking about?

You mentioned to me, the name of the symbol the letter sits in, what did you call that?

You can make out the outlining of it on the left, and slightly the left bottom, to see, the letter takes up the entire space.

P.S. I’m having fun, and so grateful to @ashdigger for allowing me to have such a historical piece.

 

[Ahi Ka]

I call it a cartouche. I’m not sure if that is the technical name for the hallmarks’ surrounds

 

[runscott]

Having seen this better picture I have to say that the bottom of the letter appears to be complete, therefore a D even though the surround (flower shape) is buffed out at the bottom.
My comment ref the stamping being towards the top of the surround (what i was trying to convey was the letter not being in the centre of the surround) is also probably not correct either

I agree. So just an old band used on a very early IFS pipe.

 

[PipeIT]

Peterson said, as I mentioned above;

—————
Therefore, the band of your pipe was created in 1919, hence the hallmark 'D', however was later assembled onto a free state edition bowl.
—————

Well, later assembled, it’s my understanding that the Free State Era started in 1919, so this could of been done that year, but anyone’s guess. Unless Peterson knew back then, when they were stamped, how long it typically was, before being placed on a pipe... hmm ?

I guess for now, it’s considered a 1919?

 

[Ahi Ka]

Peterson said, as I mentioned above;

—————
Therefore, the band of your pipe was created in 1919, hence the hallmark 'D', however was later assembled onto a free state edition bowl.
—————

Well, later assembled, it’s my understanding that the Free State Era started in 1919, so this could of been done that year, but anyone’s guess. Unless Peterson knew back then, when they were stamped, how long it typically was, before being placed on a pipe... hmm ?

I guess for now, it’s considered a 1919?

The Irish free state was not formed until Dec 1922.

As per my original post, if the hallmarks are a 1919 D, then i would assume your pipe was sold between 1923-1925. Potentially later if the silver band was at the very bottom of the heap, but I’m not sure what the established margin of error is for use of older bands. 5 years sounds totally reasonable to me.

Edit: the only plausible way to state the pipe was made in 1919 would be if there was double stamping by way of COMs I guess?

 

[PipeIT]

The Irish free state was not formed until Dec 1922.

As per my original post, if the hallmarks are a 1919 D, then i would assume your pipe was sold between 1923-1925. Potentially later if the silver band was at the very bottom of the heap, but I’m not sure what the established margin of error is for use of older bands. 5 years sounds totally reasonable to me.

Edit: the only plausible way to state the pipe was made in 1919 would be if there was double stamping by way of COMs I guess?

My bad, don’t know what I was thinking, the Free State Era was from 1922 through to 1937.

You mentioned to me before, the hallmark date could be for when the silver was inspected/certified.

I’d always assumed, with my lack of experience, that these dates, signified the date of the pipe. Of course we can see how that wouldn’t be the case for this pipe, since it’s stamped Irish Freestate, when that pipe line started in 1922.

P.S. What is, ‘double stamping by way of COMs’?

 

[Ahi Ka]

Generally speaking, hallmarks are pretty accurate at dating a pipe. If it wasn’t for the free state stamp, one would assume your pipe came from the year (or thereabouts) of the date letter.

does anyone know if other factories were as “haphazard” as Peterson’s in how they stored and used their silver bands?

by double COMs (country of manufacture), I mean like the pipe @paulfg posted above with both a “made in Ireland” and “Irish free state” stamp. I would assume this was originally a late patent era pipe, which received a new COM stamp to celebrate Irish independence

 

[paulfg]

Generally speaking, hallmarks are pretty accurate at dating a pipe. If it wasn’t for the free state stamp, one would assume your pipe came from the year (or thereabouts) of the date letter.

does anyone know if other factories were as “haphazard” as Peterson’s in how they stored and used their silver bands?

by double COMs (country of manufacture), I mean like the pipe @paulfg posted above with both a “made in Ireland” and “Irish free state” stamp. I would assume this was originally a late patent era pipe, which received a new COM stamp to celebrate Irish independence

Sorry I posted 2different pipes to show different stampings
The made in Ireland shape 4 hallmarked 1922 and the Free State no shape number bent billiard grade 3
It is not on one pipe

 

[runscott]

Generally speaking, hallmarks are pretty accurate at dating a pipe. If it wasn’t for the free state stamp, one would assume your pipe came from the year (or thereabouts) of the date letter.

does anyone know if other factories were as “haphazard” as Peterson’s in how they stored and used their silver bands?

by double COMs (country of manufacture), I mean like the pipe @paulfg posted above with both a “made in Ireland” and “Irish free state” stamp. I would assume this was originally a late patent era pipe, which received a new COM stamp to celebrate Irish independence

I have one that has 'Made in Ireland' and 'Made in Republic of Ireland'. Talking with Mark Irwin, we figured the stummel had been stamped with the earlier stamp, then the new stamp came along, so they stamped it again before selling. So basically, a first year usage of the latter stamp is our best guess.

I would think @paulfg 's pipe has a similar history - first year usage of the 'Made in Ireland' stamp.

(these are the only two Petersons I know of that have two 'made in' stamps).

As far as dating using the silver band hallmark, that's usually all we can do;i.e-sure, we realize that the bands can sit around for a long time before being used, but what else do we have to go on? The OP's pipe is obviously an anomaly to that equation, as it couldn't have been stamped 'IFS' before 1922, so that's very cool and a historically-significant Pete.

I used to keep a spreadsheet with the number of date hallmarks I'd come across from each year. Keep in mind, Ireland only minted coins when they needed them - not like the U.S. where you have examples of every single year - thousands if not millions. There are some years when Ireland didn't mint all denominations. I'm fairly sure that's what happened with silver bands as well. If I remember correctly, this was particularly true in the early 1970's - there are some years that I've never seen hallmarked bands for.

 

[Ahi Ka]

@paulfg sorry I should have looked back before posting. Of course those are different pipes. Lol. It was @runscott to who said he had the two COM stamps. Apologies for any confusion or extra excitement.

What years from the early 70s are you still looking for a hallmark example bro?

 

[runscott]

@paulfg sorry I should have looked back before posting. Of course those are different pipes. Lol. It was @runscott to who said he had the two COM stamps. Apologies for any confusion or extra excitement.

Damn, I thought someone had a super-rare one!

 

[PipeIT]

Damn, I thought someone had a super-rare one!

LOL ? I thought this was quite a rare one I have, since it’s dated on two separate era's of Irish History?

I mean, I really don’t know, how common something like this might be, or not, of course I have not been smoking Pete’s my entire life. I only know being on Pipesmagazine I’ve not noticed anyone with a similar pipe.

Or does anyone also have a similar pipe, they know of?

Hmm ?

Who’s Mark Irwin?