Irish Freestate - Hallmark - Patent Era?

[PipeIT]

I just came into possession of an older Pete, and I’ve been digging around trying to date this.

The bottom of the shank reads; (The wording placement like below)

IRISH
FREESTATE

From what I read on Pipedia, this is from the; Free State Era which dates from 1922 - 1937.

But what is odd, is the last silver hallmark stamp which appears as a small d which is suppose to date the Petes at 1919.

Then trying to understand the Patent Era I read this online;
——-
“The Patent Era appears to have been from the issue of the original patent in 1890, until the expiration of the patent; through to approximately 1915. The late Mike Leverette extended this period to 1922.”

“There are various schools of thought on this cross-over period. Personally I am not convinced that the pipes produced after 1915 are truly 'Patents', there has been great debate among collectors over the years, as to whether pipes issued during that seven year period 1915-1922, could have been given old patent silver ferrules, stems and markings. I am sure that the debate will continue for years to come.”
——-

So I do know that this does certainly appear to be a Free State Era Pete, but what is confusing is the D hallmark of 1919, since the Free State Era was suppose to of started in 1922, and then, is this also a Patent Era Pipe, if it was actually made in 1919, and then sat around for a few years, to be later sold from the Free State Era?

If it was actually made in 1919, and the Free State Era was suppose to be starting at 1922, I would assume, it was then sold to customers marketed to them as 1922?

Hmm Hmm Hmm ? LOL ?

Here’s a pic of the bottom, not extremely clear, but if you zoom it up, you should be able to make out the words.




On the shank, it only has Peterson’s Dublin and to the right a 2 on top of a 2. Also the first two hallmarks look like these to my eyes, taken from Petersonpipenotes.



The last hallmark looks like a small d to me, with a little tail in the upper left, similar looking to the D hallmark picture at Petersonpipenotes. (Bottom middle of this pic)



Zoom up the pic and you’ll see Peterson’s Dublin and to the right a 2 with a faint 2 below, and of course the hallmarks and that curious little d...

 

[PipeIT]

On the first two hallmark stamps, upon further reading;

“The first is Hibernia, the symbol of Ireland. She is depicted seated with one arm on the harp. This is the distinctive symbol of the Dublin Assay Office identifying sterling that has been assayed in Ireland. The second original symbol is the Harp Crowned, a fineness mark indicating the quality of the silver.”

 

[Ahi Ka]

My take:

Boring option: the band was sitting in a box for a few years before going onto the pipe.

More exciting option: the pipe was made, stamped with a grade (fainter 2) and banded c1919. It was then restamped and finished for sale after 1922.

either way, that’s a beautiful Pete, both a collector’s piece and a solid burner.

 

[PipeIT]

Boring option... LOL ?

What make a band in 1919, then at a later date make the pipe? hmm ?

 

[Ahi Ka]

Boring option... LOL ?

What make a band in 1919, then at a later date make the pipe? hmm ?

I could be wrong, but I think common practice in the Peterson factory was to send a whole bunch of bands to the assay office, and when they came back they just got out on top of the existing pile, meaning some of the older ones could be sitting there for a while before getting used.

 

[PipeIT]

Or the possibility of stamping the wrong letter? hmm ?

 

[Ahi Ka]

Or the possibility of stamping the wrong letter? hmm ?

I feel that is the least likely option, but hey, the Irish would have been celebrating their independence with more than one Guinness.

 

[runscott]

I think your pipe's date hallmark is a 'P' with the bottom faint/rubbed off, making the bad 1930-31

Great pipe.

 

[verporchting]

Johnny Cash: I built it one piece at a time, and it didn’t cost me a dime….

 

[ashdigger]

Irish Free State 30-31 and bobs your uncle.

Simplicity is often the answer

 

[Ahi Ka]

I never let the truth get in the way of a good yarn…

 

[ssjones]

Post a better close up of that date letter. (use a phone camera, zoomed all the way, no flash, under a light). But from the pix you did post, it does look like a P for 1930-1931

 

[paulfg]

I could be wrong, but I think common practice in the Peterson factory was to send a whole bunch of bands to the assay office, and when they came back they just got out on top of the existing pile, meaning some of the older ones could be sitting there for a while before getting used.

thats what I have read too
I also suspect it is a P as the part you can see is of centre (towards the top of the bordering shape which is rubbed out at the bottom.




Patent era pipes are stamped with peterson over patent on the ferrule

 

[paulfg]

Although you cant see it well the stummel is also marked Peterson over patent on this Patent era pipe grade 2 dutch billiard.
My free state era pipe is Peterson over System

So i am definitely in the made in the Free state era 1930/31 camp

 

[Ahi Ka]

Was the “patent” dropped from the stamping after it had expired (but still within the late “patent era”)? And was the patent stamp not used on pipes which weren’t drilled with system?

only reason I ask is that all of the older Pete’s I’ve had in my hands never had the patent stamping on their bands.

 

[paulfg]

Was the “patent” dropped from the stamping after it had expired (but still within the late “patent era”)? And was the patent stamp not used on pipes which weren’t drilled with system?

only reason I ask is that all of the older Pete’s I’ve had in my hands never had the patent stamping on their bands.

View attachment 152452View attachment 152453

I dont know the answer to that,maybe drop Mark Irwin @ peterson pipe notes a message
your first picture looks like a 1913 hallmark so well inside the patent dates,the second i assume is 1922.
I have a 1922 pipe and it is stamped with made in Ireland and Peterson over Dublin like you one

 

[runscott]

I could be wrong about this, and I'm too lazy to dig through resources; however...'patent era' just means that patent pipes were made during the era, but not all Peterson pipes were 'patent' pipes. I have at least one Peterson 'patent era' pipe that has no mention of 'patent' anywhere on the pipe.

Basically, if the pipe doesn't haver a p-lip and isn't a 'system', you shouldn't see references to 'patent' on the pipe....I think.

So if I'm wrong, then my 'patent era' pipe isn't as old as I thought it was.

 

[Ahi Ka]

I could be wrong about this, and I'm too lazy to dig through resources; however...'patent era' just means that patent pipes were made during the era, but not all Peterson pipes were 'patent' pipes. I have at least one Peterson 'patent era' pipe that has no mention of 'patent' anywhere on the pipe.

Basically, if the pipe doesn't haver a p-lip and isn't a 'system', you shouldn't see references to 'patent' on the pipe....I think.

So if I'm wrong, then my 'patent era' pipe isn't as old as I thought it was.

That makes total sense in regards to pipes which weren’t a patented design but come from that era, eg the ones I included in the pics above, or the 1903 meer cutty which tim has.

what I’m really interested to know is whether the patent stamp was dropped on pipes after it expired? Eg like the 1922 pipe Paul showed above (I could be wrong but I would include that in the patent era as independence wasn’t until Dec that year, and I kinda thought the “made in Ireland” stamps were a patriotic COM of sorts)

 

[runscott]

That makes total sense in regards to pipes which weren’t a patented design but come from that era, eg the ones I included in the pics above, or the 1903 meer cutty which tim has.

what I’m really interested to know is whether the patent stamp was dropped on pipes after it expired? Eg like the 1922 pipe Paul showed above (I could be wrong but I would include that in the patent era as independence wasn’t until Dec that year, and I kinda thought the “made in Ireland” stamps were a patriotic COM of sorts)

I would have to go back and read related passages in Mark Irwin's book to get a better idea, but off the top of my head I'm fairly sure the 'Patent' stamp was dropped as soon as the patent expired.

There are no absolutely firm rules about any of this - lots of anomalies. My strangest Peterson stampings are on a pipe that has 'Made in Ireland' and also 'Made in the Republic of Ireland'. We can speculate as to what that means.

 

[Ahi Ka]

The anomalies are part of what makes it such an interesting brand to research