I'm no Dunhill expert, but they sure do look odd.
I guess Best Offer was accepted.
You would think a buyer with a four-digit eBay rating would know better.
Interesting Completed Ebay Auctions - British Pipes
- Thread starter ssjones
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I guess Best Offer was accepted.
You would think a buyer with a four-digit eBay rating would know better.
The seller showed date stamps for two of the shells and two bruyeres - looks like 1980 on the bruyeres and maybe 1979 on the shells (kind of fuzzy)? That would not be terribly unusual. The gold bands appear to have hallmarks - at least some of them - but unreadable. But it would not have been unreasonable, or difficult, for the owner to have had gold bands added to each of the pipes.
There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the box, unless this set sold by SmokingPipes was acquired from the same mysterious Nigerian scammer (must be, since it also does not have engraving on the brass name-plate).
https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=284070
There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the box, unless this set sold by SmokingPipes was acquired from the same mysterious Nigerian scammer (must be, since it also does not have engraving on the brass name-plate).
https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=284070
Why so obviously fake ?Pipes described as “well cared for” last I checked snapped in half and superglued back together does not constitute “well cared for”. Not not mention they are obviously fake…
The "gold bands" are highly suspect to me - but I'm no smith or jeweler. Could just be photo illusions.
Aside from them all looking very thin, poorly formed, and off color- these two seem to not be symmetrical.
Without seeing them in person, I'd think best case is that the bands were aftermarket.
Then there's this terrific broken shank.. doesn't make it "fake", but does hint at some liberties being taken in the description and provenance.
Aside from them all looking very thin, poorly formed, and off color- these two seem to not be symmetrical.
Without seeing them in person, I'd think best case is that the bands were aftermarket.
Then there's this terrific broken shank.. doesn't make it "fake", but does hint at some liberties being taken in the description and provenance.
Sure, I'm not claiming to consider the pipes legit or not.
Obviously the bands are aftermarket and poorly fitted.
Somehow the pipes do look "off" .
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Agreed on the bands.
Any time something like this comes up, and there are broad comments about 'everything' being horrible, Nigerian scammers, etc., I look at the supposed work of whoever created this horrible fraud, and I ask myself: "Does this make sense? Would a counterfeiter do it this way?" In this case, it does not make sense - for a number of reasons. Just ask yourself all the relevant questions about each aspect of this auction. For instance, any 'creator' who went to this much trouble would have had better bands added to the pipes, not used a broken stummel, had the date stamps match, etc. Probably even taken the pipe-cleaners out of the pipes;i.e-if this is fraud, it was done in a way that in no way maximized profit, but involved a lot of effort.
The above are all things that do NOT increase credibility for the auction, other than to a few dumbasses like myself.
Another possibility: There were a lot of stummels, some stamped, that 'got away' from Dunhill - in the 1980's? There was a Loring article about it. It's possible that at that point an employee 'snuck' out these pipes, or their parts, along with the box, and made a 7-day set, then added the gold bands. I've seen some Dunhills with poor stamps and poor gold bands - wish I could find examples. The stamps on these do not look that poor.
Still, in my opinion the above is also a stretch - I believe this is a legit set, but with aftermarket bands.
I think @runscott makes a very persuasive argument against the aforementioned Dunghill set being a fraud. Why bother to snap a shank, then perform a thoroughly botched repair as a selling point, not to mention the stinky pipe cleaners. And why choose to fake '70's era Dunghills, when they were turning out the Dunhill equivalent of the Yugo? Yeah, the aftermarket stems look wonky, but photographs are treacherous to interpret.
Then there's the seller. He's been on eBay since 2007 with less than 600 trades, it's been so long since he sold on eBay that he's got only 4 sales listed over the past 12 month period and one of those isn't tobacco related. The name, Camarillo Trader, reminds me of one of those "antique" stores you find in Ventura County. There's quite a cluster of antique stores in that area;.
On the other hand, some of the stamping, like that wonky ODA stamp, IS kind of suspicious. But, Dunhill could be quite variable.
Maybe this is a fake set that some schlub bought in the early '80's, enjoyed, fucked up, left his dirtyunderwear pipe cleaners in situ. And it's now being sold by someone with little actual knowledge of pipes, someone who just sells whatever old shit comes his or her way.
In any event, not a $5000 item to moi.
Then there's the seller. He's been on eBay since 2007 with less than 600 trades, it's been so long since he sold on eBay that he's got only 4 sales listed over the past 12 month period and one of those isn't tobacco related. The name, Camarillo Trader, reminds me of one of those "antique" stores you find in Ventura County. There's quite a cluster of antique stores in that area;.
On the other hand, some of the stamping, like that wonky ODA stamp, IS kind of suspicious. But, Dunhill could be quite variable.
Maybe this is a fake set that some schlub bought in the early '80's, enjoyed, fucked up, left his dirty
In any event, not a $5000 item to moi.
I 
how many of out folks here don’t varnish their opinions. It’s refreshing & gets us to the point where we all get educated. 
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how many of out folks here don’t varnish their opinions. It’s refreshing & gets us to the point where we all get educated. ️
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It's important, I think, as long as we don't piss off too many other members!
I've disagreed with George a couple of times recently, but I know he's okay with that - he and I talked quite a few times in Zoom meetings about various restorations we've seen on ebay, and he's always been very open-minded about the opinions of others...and he shares his expertise, which is greatly appreciated.
The easiest-to-see-it's-a fake "tell" with Dunhill pipes is the company never went the pre-molded stem route.
Every stem ever made by them was from rod stock, no exceptions.
While a stem cut from rod can be made to LOOK like it was originally molded (having a lack of material to shape is never a problem with rod), the opposite situation IS a problem. A molded stem DOES lack material unless one is chosen that is massively oversize to start with... and doing such selective reduction is more work & more difficult than using rod to start with.
Where are the areas that lack material?
Unless it is a fishtail---meaning the button deliberately made wider than the shank---the sides of a Dunhill stem should be dead straight.
Also, the outside edges of the button on a Dunhill are never angled in, but rounded over.
Another tell is axial alignment.
Because clamping a pre-molded stem to cut a tenon is fussy and easily done a bit "off", while rod stock is essentially impossible to misalign, an axial screw-up scream "Molded!".
Dunhill would never allow such a pipe to pass QA.
Pics of the slots would reveal even more, as would an end view of the button shapes, but there are no pics from that angle.
I have no doubt they would look wrong, though, for both the same "not enough material" reason, and because anyone who was unaware of the problems described above would, by definition, lack the knowledge to make the button look right. (As well as the skill and special tools... copying by hand the traits of Dunhill's factory machines is tricky as hell).
I could go on, but breakfast is calling me, and I'm hongry...
Every stem ever made by them was from rod stock, no exceptions.
While a stem cut from rod can be made to LOOK like it was originally molded (having a lack of material to shape is never a problem with rod), the opposite situation IS a problem. A molded stem DOES lack material unless one is chosen that is massively oversize to start with... and doing such selective reduction is more work & more difficult than using rod to start with.
Where are the areas that lack material?
Unless it is a fishtail---meaning the button deliberately made wider than the shank---the sides of a Dunhill stem should be dead straight.
Also, the outside edges of the button on a Dunhill are never angled in, but rounded over.
Another tell is axial alignment.
Because clamping a pre-molded stem to cut a tenon is fussy and easily done a bit "off", while rod stock is essentially impossible to misalign, an axial screw-up scream "Molded!".
Dunhill would never allow such a pipe to pass QA.
Pics of the slots would reveal even more, as would an end view of the button shapes, but there are no pics from that angle.
I have no doubt they would look wrong, though, for both the same "not enough material" reason, and because anyone who was unaware of the problems described above would, by definition, lack the knowledge to make the button look right. (As well as the skill and special tools... copying by hand the traits of Dunhill's factory machines is tricky as hell).
I could go on, but breakfast is calling me, and I'm hongry...
Yes, very suspicious - it's what made me think of those partially-completed stummels that 'snuck' out of Dunhill and started showing up on ebay and elsewhere. But...I have one or two Dunhills that are completely legitimate, but with wonky stamps.
Here's the Loring article about those pipes, with a picture of one with a fake gold band - hard to tell if it's like the ones in the ebay auction: 1980's Fake Dunhills.
I was tempted to ask the seller for pics of some such details, but figured it would be a waste of time. Maybe we'll get lucky and the auction winner will show up here to answer questions.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. I've seen many stems that I thought were legit, but are 'rounded in' like the above. Is this 1976 sold by Smoker's Haven sporting a repro stem?
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. I've seen many stems that I thought were legit, but are 'rounded in' like the above. Is this 1976 sold by Smoker's Haven sporting a repro stem?
No, that's a legit fishtail. Made that way because the shank is so fat. (think reverse engineering... there a width limit for comfort, so the button end came first, then the shank diameter required the "re-flare")
Such accommodation was not needed by any of the box-set pipes under discussion.
Spot on ! I own an otherwise fine patent Dunhill's shell LV 1 ( vulcano, original not fitted with a FT stem ) that was given a similar stem by ( if memory serves me correctly ) Scandpipes . Always wondered if it is a Dunhill repair, or one of their own "creations".Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. I've seen many stems that I thought were legit, but are 'rounded in' like the above. Is this 1976 sold by Smoker's Haven sporting a repro stem?
Did not so much mind it then, I bought it for a song . But now as we speak of it ?
The tenon shows the original 45 degrees bevel.
George; what say you ?
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Very much agree…There are opinions here that sometimes get me a scratching my head. However, I enjoy George’s take on most things as well. He has a wealth of experience that you can’t put a price on. I still rewatch his YouTube videos and if I had quality Britwood that needed refreshment there would be no place I’d rather go.It's important, I think, as long as we don't piss off too many other members!
I've disagreed with George a couple of times recently, but I know he's okay with that - he and I talked quite a few times in Zoom meetings about various restorations we've seen on ebay, and he's always been very open-minded about the opinions of others...and he shares his expertise, which is greatly appreciated.
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