In Search of High Sugar-Content Virginias

[LakebottomPiper]

Hello fellow pipers,

As I have gotten into straight virginias and virginia/periques, and as I have listened to the Mike McNiel interviews on the pipesmag radioshow, I have become very interested in searching for blends with high sugar-content virginias, and those which are well-suited for aging. I'm sure many of you have done the same, but I've encountered some difficulties. I guess I should say a few things explicitly before I go any further:

For one, I'm not trying to find a McClelland replica, just trying to follow a thread of something I picked up Mike's numerous interviews with Brian. Mike mentions that the virginias he used in some of his blends were high in sugars, percentages in the low 20s. I think he also mentioned they were Canadian leaf.

For another, I think I understand Mike McNiel's contention that the elimination of leaf auctions and the need to automate leaf harvest, which ended more selective partial harvesting based on ripeness made it harder to find very specific grades, probably including those with highest sugar content.

To round things off, we all probably know that CRF lists the exact leaf grades and sugar content for each. I've smoked the 2023 CRF w/P, and it blew my socks off - but it's sugar content topped out at 18%, just a bit short of what Mike mentioned. So here's what I'm getting at:

Sugar content in the tin is important, right? The higher it is, the sweeter the leaf (I'm not interested in the inverse nicotine relationship to sugar or burning characteristics of higher sugar content for this conversation). But things change in the can, right? Aerobic and anaerobic fermentation causes an increase in sugar content for virginias, which I think is due to the conversion of starches to simpler sugars that our palates can perceive.
I guess what I am is curious about is what we want to look for when we consider what to age based on specifically fermentation - assuming the quality of the leaf is good, assuming correct ripeness and reasonably highest sugar content at time of tinning, is there a measurable out there for starch content? Would that be something worth trying to find out and help us understand the potential of an individual blend, aside from the usual considerations we all mostly know about? Does anybody have any examples of something like this, blends that are currently in production that are maybe even designed with this in mind?

Not all, or probably any, of the current producers of tobacco can afford to hold onto leaf for the mysterious voodoo fermentation (maybe using perique as a kick-starter in the center of the cakes, and removed later?) and (probably) obscenely long aging and repetitive sweating of McClelland, so I get that they have to move their product through the building to pay the bills and I'm just looking for some things that have the potential for fermentation magic, and not just because the manufacturer says so in the copy they wrote for their products.


Cheers from the bottom of the lake!

Lakebottom Piper

 

[Mr_houston]

I’ll be following this thread. I am a big fan of sweet red VAs.

 

[Peter Turbo]

As soon as I see a thread that mentions the McNeil's or McClelland's, I bail.

Good luck!

 

[cosmicfolklore]

It is going to be hard to find Virginias that haven't been souped in sauce. From years of being on here, it isn't very apparent to most when a Virginia has been cased, but especially Virginias almost all have been cased.

The ones I know for certain haven't been cased, are a few from C&D; Opening Night, Red Carpet, and Virginia Flake. Also, GLP's Union Square.

 

[BingBong]

Probably not worth mentioning because they're artificially sweetened to a greater or lesser degree, but Germain's Gold Leaf R/R and Medium Flake, and Ashton Gold Rush, all very high quality leaf which are very enjoyable. I'm letting a tin of Gold Rush age to see what happens; I'd like to do the same with the Germain's offerings but I can't keep my hands off if I have any and they're too hard to find anyway.

 

[makhorkasmoker]

I’d try whole leaf. The seller will often tell you in the description where it was grown (some are from Canada), which priming it came from, where the leaf was located on the plant, the flue temps and more. You also know with whole leaf that it hasn’t been cased, topped, pg’d or blended with something else not mentioned.

 

[greeneyes]

My opinion is that African Virginias have the most depth and subtle, natural sweetness. Cheap Brazilian Virginia requires lots of saucing and doctoring to "taste sweet" and, again, in my IP noon, won't mature to any significant extent with age. This, I would seek out blends that are predominantly African Virginias, for example from Gawith Hoggarth or Germans, the only caveat being that certain blends have been moving away from more costly African and toward cheaper varieties of Virginia, with notable differences. For my part I imported I think around 8 or 10 lbs of African Virginia shag and flake, directly from the source in South Africa--- Wesley's tobacconist. It's naturally sweet and bready, without dry hay overtones, and I think it will age marvelously. I think Gawith Hoggarth Bright CR Flake used to have a good proportion of African Virginia (I can't vouch whether it still does) and a batch I bought five years ago has also aged quite well.

 

[Mrs. Pickles]

Sugar content in the tin is important, right? The higher it is, the sweeter the leaf ... Aerobic and anaerobic fermentation causes an increase in sugar content for virginias, which I think is due to the conversion of starches to simpler sugars that our palates can perceive.

... is there a measurable out there for starch content? Does anybody have any examples of something like this, blends that are currently in production that are maybe even designed with this in mind?

Regarding measures of starch and sugar's relationship to perceived sweetness--here is some information from Jeremy Reeves/Chuck Stanion via a Smoking Pipes blog: https://www.smokingpipes.com/smokingpipesblog/single.cfm/post/anthology-2023-compendium-virginias

"'The sugar content of the leaf is based on laboratory testing to assess what weight of the tobacco a mass spectrometer recognizes as sugar and what weight of the tobacco a mass spectrometer recognizes as nicotine. We could search for other things and find other chemical components that make up a portion of the tobacco, but most leaf dealers have all of their crops tested for sugar and nicotine, because that's what most blenders are really interested to know so that they can make sure that if they have nicotine targets or sugar targets for their blend that they can find the best leaf for the job.'

"This Georgia leaf contains 17% sugar, which is not low but not particularly high for Virginia leaf. 'It smokes as sweet as Splenda, though' says Jeremy. 'Just very sweet, and it's been a mystery to me. I'm not a scientist. I'm not an agronomist. I'm a hobby farmer but definitely don't have any scientific know-how to really understand what's taking place. All I know is that something about this leaf comes through with a lot of sweetness. It doesn't take very much in a blend to really bolster any sweet edge that you're looking for in the end result.'"

This blog is there to sell the leaf they are talking about, of course, so we can take it with a grain of salt. But I'm willing to believe that sugar content isn't the only thing that determines our perception of sweetness in tobacco.
As for getting tobacco with a high measured and labeled sugar content, I agree that @makhorkasmoker's recommendation for whole leaf is a good way to go. Also to that end, seek out the lemon/bright VA grades. My understanding is that lemon VA generally has higher sugar content than the more mature orange/red grades.

Once you secure a supply of different tobaccos with varying sugar content, you'll have to test how they age and let us know the hypothesis holds up.

C&D also sells a line of stuff that's suposed to be made for aging. "The Cellar Series." I haven't tried them.

 

[Strange Quark]

I have read going back decades the highest natural sugar content in flue cured varieties is Indian Mysore tobacco. Sugar content is around 25%. I've noticed with more natural virginias that they don't seem to me to get sweeter over time but they develop more of a nutty quality.