I'm So Mad
- Thread starter tbradsim1
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Honestly, when I think back on house break in experiences I can think of, (via word of mouth or the media) most robbers break in with a bag, not a weapon, that's not to say violent break ins don't occur of course, we have the same general crime issues faced most every place but...in a tiny island nation of only 4 million people, sitting in the big ol' pacific ocean there really is nowhere to run, I think that has something to do with certain types of crime being lower than bigger continents.
And no, I was not brought up to fear guns as evil and dangerous. Guns just had no relevance in my upbringing, some dads had a hunting rifle locked away somewhere and other than that guns were non existant in my world, not evil or dangerous. (the police don't even carry) My little brother got into hunting, so at the very end of my 'childhood' there was a couple of rifles in a cabinet in the house. I like to tag along hunting with him when I get the chance and certainly appreciate the gun as an efficient and effective tool.
You can not shoot someone for merely breaking into your home. You do not have a right to shoot someone over a property crime. You have a right to protect yourself from a threat on your life and/or a threat on someone else's life, and only then are you allowed to use the necessary force to disable the threat. Just because someone has a knife doesn't mean you can just shoot them. If they are physically threatening to harm you are someone else with said knife then you have a right to protect yourself or the other person's life, but the simple fact that they had it in their hand and or on their person doesn't mean you can just shoot them. If you do have to protect yourself and/or someone else and take another person's life then you better be able to articulate to the police as to why you did exactly what you did. The response of "he came into my home, so I shot him" is not a good argument, and citizen's have gone to jail for doing as much.
Have you all listened to the 911 tapes? You don't need to rely on the media at all. Just listen. Three masked men break into an occupied home. No way to tell their age or intent. They're masked. 23 year old shoots. BARRICADES himself in a room - states he shot two, and he can still hear them outside. Adrenaline alone would make darn near anyone empty the entire clip. So he shoots, retreats, barricades himself for protection, and calls 911 for help.
I'm struggling to feel bad for the three armed, masked, intruders. Our friends here on the forum with law enforcement experience will likely agree that home invasion robbers are statistically the most dangerous type of criminals that exist.
And yes - the moron getaway car driver is guilty of three murders. Open and shut case. And they won't need any of her statements to prove it.
The kid should get a parade honoring him.
I'm struggling to feel bad for the three armed, masked, intruders. Our friends here on the forum with law enforcement experience will likely agree that home invasion robbers are statistically the most dangerous type of criminals that exist.
And yes - the moron getaway car driver is guilty of three murders. Open and shut case. And they won't need any of her statements to prove it.
The kid should get a parade honoring him.
I guess thieving dirtbags in America are worse than thieving dirtbags in your country, mortonbriar. Here, you hear on the news every it seems like every day, stories such as a home invader breaking into a home and raping and killing an elderly woman and then making off with her belongings. No, here, if someone is breaking into your home, you would be a fool not to assume said someone is carrying a weapon fully intending to use it if they are caught. My belief is, if someone breaks into your home you have every right to put a fist sized hole in his chest whether you see a weapon or not.
Metalhead, the intruder won't be able to articulate his reasons why he wanted into my residence wearing a mask and carrying a knife. But the autopsy will reveal a sudden and fatal case of lead poisoning.
I'd rather be sorted by police than identified by a grieving family member.
I'd rather be sorted by police than identified by a grieving family member.
Let's say a stranger is drunk off his ass, and mistakes your house for his. He tries the keys but can't get in, so he finds another method of entry. Now this intoxicated man begins yelling at you thinking you're in his house. Bang! You shoot him... oops. Now who's in trouble? Yes, the man shouldn't have been there, but just because he makes entry into the home doesn't mean you can just shoot him. He has to be a threat to your safety and/or another persons.
If you read any in-home defensive tactic book, it will tell you to not actively seek out the threat. Instead you are supposed to hide and barricade yourself and others into a room. Arm yourself in the event that it is necessary or you are able to. If the bad guys try to break into the room that you're in you yell at them that you have a gun and that if they do not go away you'll shoot them. You repeat it until they respond in one of two fashions. Either they leave and you wait for police to arrive, or if they do enter the room after the warnings that you'll shoot, then you can only assume that they're continuing to enter the room to harm you. At that point you would be justified in shooting said individual.
While I understand that home invasions are scary and in some occasions the bad guys to commit bodily harm on the victim, you still have to justify you did what you did. I know that rational thinking goes out the window in a lot of these occasions, but that's not an excuse for taking a person's life when it may not have been necessary. Again, someone coming into your home doesn't give you a free pass to just shoot them. They have to actually be threatening to hurt you and/or someone else, and you need to be able to justify what you did.
If you read any in-home defensive tactic book, it will tell you to not actively seek out the threat. Instead you are supposed to hide and barricade yourself and others into a room. Arm yourself in the event that it is necessary or you are able to. If the bad guys try to break into the room that you're in you yell at them that you have a gun and that if they do not go away you'll shoot them. You repeat it until they respond in one of two fashions. Either they leave and you wait for police to arrive, or if they do enter the room after the warnings that you'll shoot, then you can only assume that they're continuing to enter the room to harm you. At that point you would be justified in shooting said individual.
While I understand that home invasions are scary and in some occasions the bad guys to commit bodily harm on the victim, you still have to justify you did what you did. I know that rational thinking goes out the window in a lot of these occasions, but that's not an excuse for taking a person's life when it may not have been necessary. Again, someone coming into your home doesn't give you a free pass to just shoot them. They have to actually be threatening to hurt you and/or someone else, and you need to be able to justify what you did.
Metalhead - We are back to my "Perception of Threat" argument. Nobody can say you were or were not in fear for your life. In most states you cannot shoot someone for breaking into your house (Ahem! Anthony?). You CAN shoot if the intruder has a weapon. You do not have to wait for him to try to use it. In the case of a gun, you would be dead before you could react if you wait. He is in my home. He got there by forced entry. He has a weapon. He is dead. I'm alive. My wife is alive. My sons are alive. I am not going to prison.
I'm also done beating this horse into glue. I can tell you the laws (though they do vary some by state), but I cannot force you to comply with them. That choice is yours.
Tim
I'm also done beating this horse into glue. I can tell you the laws (though they do vary some by state), but I cannot force you to comply with them. That choice is yours.
Tim
Metalhead, if the drunk has a mask and a knife......oh well. I'm not going to explain it any further.
Metalhead is correct ... in some states. Ohio used to have the same stipulations. The "Castle Law" ended that. Now, you do not have to run,, hide, barricade, or anything else, in order to stay safe. You can shoot. Ohio also goes a bit further, defining your front porch, your car (if you are in it), even a tent (again, if you are in it) as a "Temporary domicile" and you may defend it the same as your home. Unfortunately, some states are behind the curve on this one. Now, I really AM done. Out.
Tim
Tim
Lots of robbers wear masks, that doesn't mean they're going to inflict bodily harm on you. A person having a knife is definitely a more intense situation and a threat. However, if said person is on one side of the living room and not within striking distance and/or actually making an attempt at you with the knife; then you warm them you'll shoot if they come near you and don't leave the house. If they approach you than obviously protect yourself by any means necessary. If you are in a position to retreat to safety that is also a better option than engaging the threat. Of course these are just hypothetical scenario's, but you still need to articulate as to why you did what you did.
Am I wrong in assuming I cannot fire on someone if I do not clearly see a weapon? Not arguing, just asking. My thinking is, if the guy is carrying a weapon and you hesitate, you might also freeze up, allowing him to use his weapon before you can. I would think, someone breaking into your home gives you enough argument to fear for your life and use force. I'm not 100% sure, but doesn't castle doctrine state that as well?
As tschiraldi said. Each state has different laws. If you own a gun for personal defense then it is highly recommended that you know the laws of your state. When/where/how I can protect myself etc. Knowing the laws, and mentally running through scenario's in your mind will help you in the event that such situations occur.
It's kind of like doing an in-home fire drill, only doing it mentally in your head. The laws say this, and in the event this happens I would do this etc. Even though it's only mental it can still help prepare you in the event that a real situation presents itself, because you've already thought ahead of time what you would actually do. Those few moments of not having to think about what to actually do may make the difference in the outcome of the event.
Please don't mistake my information as protection for the bad guy. It's protection for yourself and your family. Like I've said I've seen/heard media stories of the good guy getting in trouble because he thought he was doing the right thing, but the law thought differently. Again, know your state laws, and what you can and can't do.
It's kind of like doing an in-home fire drill, only doing it mentally in your head. The laws say this, and in the event this happens I would do this etc. Even though it's only mental it can still help prepare you in the event that a real situation presents itself, because you've already thought ahead of time what you would actually do. Those few moments of not having to think about what to actually do may make the difference in the outcome of the event.
Please don't mistake my information as protection for the bad guy. It's protection for yourself and your family. Like I've said I've seen/heard media stories of the good guy getting in trouble because he thought he was doing the right thing, but the law thought differently. Again, know your state laws, and what you can and can't do.
In Oklahoma if a person is present in any place where they have a right to be, they have no duty to retreat and have the right to meet force with force, including deadly force, if they reasonably believe that it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to themselves or another, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. You are in my house with a Mask, dressed in Black,Gloves on, you. are a threat to me and my Family. Nuff said.
No joke Bradley. Somebody breaks in my house I'll gladly show them my mountain folk love of shotguns.
Unlike several posters on this thread, I've never killed a man.
I've never wanted to kill somebody but, I would kill if I felt that my family's lives and/or my life was threatened.
As we know it, the perps were dressed in black, faces covered and armed with a brass knuckle and a knife. (I sit to the right of Genghis Khan but those knucks are still nothing more than a weapon of intimidation.) However, they were forcibly breaking into a private domicile and I'm sure the 23 year old resident was scared out of his mind. I would've been as well.
You've got nano-seconds to compute.
If I rack a round into the 12 gauge what are their reactions?
And after the shooting incident, I make a beeline to my former priest - the Chief Chaplain of my state's National Guard.
"Were you afraid for your life?"
"Yes, Father."
"Did you shoot anybody in the back?"
"No, Father."
"Next?"
Some people are just chlorine in the gene pool.
Fnord
I've never wanted to kill somebody but, I would kill if I felt that my family's lives and/or my life was threatened.
As we know it, the perps were dressed in black, faces covered and armed with a brass knuckle and a knife. (I sit to the right of Genghis Khan but those knucks are still nothing more than a weapon of intimidation.) However, they were forcibly breaking into a private domicile and I'm sure the 23 year old resident was scared out of his mind. I would've been as well.
You've got nano-seconds to compute.
If I rack a round into the 12 gauge what are their reactions?
And after the shooting incident, I make a beeline to my former priest - the Chief Chaplain of my state's National Guard.
"Were you afraid for your life?"
"Yes, Father."
"Did you shoot anybody in the back?"
"No, Father."
"Next?"
Some people are just chlorine in the gene pool.
Fnord
I want to reiterate my well wishes to that shooter.
That said, I have a big ass dog and a 12 gauge. I'm fine, but I was worried about my wife. So I have explained to her several times that she is good to go to waste anyone who comes in our house. If they are willing to face off against my Mastiff and aren't dissuaded by her racking a round, no jury on the planet would doubt she was in danger.
I get where Metal is coming from. I just had this discussion here last week. (Not with him, But both Metal and I live in WA). If you think the media is sketchy, the COURTS on the west coast are pretty terrifying.
If you have a clean shoot and IF you beat the criminal side, chances are the mother fucker's family is waiting with a civil suit.
That is where we can discuss the end of America.
That said, I have a big ass dog and a 12 gauge. I'm fine, but I was worried about my wife. So I have explained to her several times that she is good to go to waste anyone who comes in our house. If they are willing to face off against my Mastiff and aren't dissuaded by her racking a round, no jury on the planet would doubt she was in danger.
I get where Metal is coming from. I just had this discussion here last week. (Not with him, But both Metal and I live in WA). If you think the media is sketchy, the COURTS on the west coast are pretty terrifying.
If you have a clean shoot and IF you beat the criminal side, chances are the mother fucker's family is waiting with a civil suit.
That is where we can discuss the end of America.
If somebody enters your home uninvited wereing a mask they surely arent there to have a cup of tea.They deserve everything they get.They knew what they were doing ie robbing someones house if burgulars thought they might end up dead then perhaps they wouldnt do it,but no there is very little deterant
When I first read this story, among other things I kinda hoped it wouldn't be caught here.
This stuff hurts.
I feel badly for the teens. I feel more badly for their families. I can't imagine what inspires kids to be so fucking stupid today. Can we blame TV or movies or music or video games, or maybe it is upbringing and we should't feel so badly for those families. Then there's a 21-year-old accomplice to a felony who should be held responsible for all felonies resulting in the commission of that felony. Does that criminal responsibility exist in the Oklahoma law books? I have no idea. There's a 23-year-old guy who, if I'm understanding the facts, should not face legal or monetary consequences for defending himself in his family's home, and I hope it doesn't scar him too badly for life.
But I don't know the facts. Just what I read. I guess I won't know until after hearings and trials.
Sucks all around. Don't break into peoples' houses armed and masked. If you get your ass shot, you deserve it.
This stuff hurts.
I feel badly for the teens. I feel more badly for their families. I can't imagine what inspires kids to be so fucking stupid today. Can we blame TV or movies or music or video games, or maybe it is upbringing and we should't feel so badly for those families. Then there's a 21-year-old accomplice to a felony who should be held responsible for all felonies resulting in the commission of that felony. Does that criminal responsibility exist in the Oklahoma law books? I have no idea. There's a 23-year-old guy who, if I'm understanding the facts, should not face legal or monetary consequences for defending himself in his family's home, and I hope it doesn't scar him too badly for life.
But I don't know the facts. Just what I read. I guess I won't know until after hearings and trials.
Sucks all around. Don't break into peoples' houses armed and masked. If you get your ass shot, you deserve it.
Good shoot? Are you kidding me? A teenager with a brass knuckles and a knife vs an ar-15?
Do you folks have such little regard for life that you're looking for an excuse to kill? Or are you really so afraid?
I knew a lot of guys that talked sh!t exactly like some of the posts here. That always stopped the second they came under fire the first time. If you've been in the sh!t and seen the horror of what we do to each other would realize there are no good shoots.
In this context, announcing you have a gun and a warning shot would have cleared these kids out and likely afforded them a chance to correct the mistakes that we all have made as teens.
Do you folks have such little regard for life that you're looking for an excuse to kill? Or are you really so afraid?
I knew a lot of guys that talked sh!t exactly like some of the posts here. That always stopped the second they came under fire the first time. If you've been in the sh!t and seen the horror of what we do to each other would realize there are no good shoots.
In this context, announcing you have a gun and a warning shot would have cleared these kids out and likely afforded them a chance to correct the mistakes that we all have made as teens.
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