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Haha, I totally missed the Todd post. But, I think that posted on the interwebs, you were found with your zipper down dude, and NO, I don't be thinking I gots to send you an email to criticize your pipes. This is a forum where we do this, saying good and bad stuff to better understand that aspect of the hobby. This is where that should happen, IMO.

 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
11,773
16,070
SE PA USA
giphy.gif

 

toddjohnson

Lurker
Feb 21, 2013
5
0
NO, I don't be thinking I gots to send you an email to criticize your pipes. This is a forum where we do this, saying good and bad stuff to better understand that aspect of the hobby. This is where that should happen, IMO.
I agree completely. That's why I said, "send us an e-mail" to let us know where the conversation is happening--whether on this forum or some place else--and someone from Briarworks will be happy to participate. I'm all for public discourse and debate--maybe too much for it as it turns out.
Todd

 
Glad to have you on the forum. You may not remember me, but I am a Briary rat that remembers you from a few visits. I'm the guy that looks just like Skip except prettier and a tad younger and taller. Well, not exactly like him. We just both have red beards, ha ha. Anyways, we all root for you, but this post was a shocker. With the post concerning your reps visit to our Magic City Pipe Club, like I said, I don't know what it was that deterred the others from buying, but for me it was just the lack of shapes that I collect. I can't speak for the others, but we all did note that the rep just wasn't very... salesman-like. Skip told us that he didn't understand that the meeting was at night, so he may have just been pissed about some other misunderstanding. I look forward to seeing what other shapes you come up with for the future. I would be honored to put a Birmingham boy's pipe in my collection. And, I don't think anyone disputed the quality of your product, just maybe the style? I can't speak for anyone but myself. And, I don't always do that well even. Ha ha!
But, as for the discourse in the OP, I would avoid that type of stuff. As someone who makes things other than pipes, I would never criticize my competition on the web. That is what talks with my buddies and girlfriend are for. That's just my .02. As you can see, those of us who frequent the pipe shows and collect pipes are on here and can sometimes see when you're pissing in the ashtrays, ha ha.
Good luck. And, hopefully, I'll see you at The Briary again soon.

 

daimyo

Lifer
May 15, 2014
1,460
4
Flatticus and Cosmic, I think we have all laid out our points and given our reasoning. There is one thing I am not understanding though. Communication among humans is poor at meeting its goal of direct transmission of knowledge or opinion. We are simply translating symbolism. If I say rock then one person may see a boulder and one a pebble. Further clarification is not only helpful but often needed to get one's point from their mind into the mind of another. Now if Todd had been unwilling or unable to clarify then I might agree but instead within a page he had succinctly defined what pipes he was was referring to and what he meant by putting them out of business. Many of the new makers there were worried they were producing turds and the clarification and explanation were quick and exacting, assuring them they did not constitute the problem. Several other makers could easily be seen as Todd's competition and several of them are what one could call "hot" at the moment. Clearly his ire was not directed at them either. As to the issue of putting them out of business, all that was said was to offer better product and consumer education and went out of his way not to call out any specific business. There were exactly zero machinations on how any actual business would be sabotaged. It's one thing to ask people to stand by what they said, it's another to insist they stand by how you took it instead of being allowed to clarify. It seems silly to act as if no clarification or context existed. Perhaps I am naive to take Todd at his word but why read on post and count it as the whole when there is a whole thread expounding in the points made?

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,717
16,294
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
Ah, Jeannie! They wouldn't allow her to have a navel. The powers that be must have thought she born of an immaculate conception.
Another note: Are there really people on this earth that truly believe it is possible to send a message into the ether and have it remain private? You post it and it belongs to the world!

 

daimyo

Lifer
May 15, 2014
1,460
4
I'm not saying to leave it out, I'm saying that when a man clarifies his statement I take him at his word unless I have reason not to. Everyone here with a bone to pick against Todd has left out all the other pipe makers who agreed with what he said. Most of what you have just posted is a rant against a 2x2 picture site acting as a showroom and education center for new pipers. While you may disagree, I do not think his opinion is tantamount to what you imply. Your first quote isn't even from Todd, it's from another member. You also quote the part where he bemoans instagram but left out the part where he finishes his thoughts and commends folks like King for proper use of it while not slouching on their actual pipe making. Ultimately it seems we will not agree on what was being said and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

 
May 3, 2010
6,428
1,477
Las Vegas, NV
I completely understand anyone of Todd's caliber getting fed up with and ranting about the number of artisan carvers who have gathered a following through social media, but haven't truly honed their craft and are producing pipes that aren't really of the quality that would demand a $400 etc. price tag.
Personally I have met him and he was fun to hangout with and shoot the breeze about the hobby. I'm hoping to be able to share some bowls again the Friday before the West Coast Pipe Show this year.
As for the Icarus and Neptune pipes, I love them. To me they truly are worth their price. They're made tremendously well and have some more innovative engineering to them. The table they had was adorned with some classic shapes as well as a number of more artisan like shapes.
I just received my first Icarus pipe on Monday and had a break in bowl yesterday and I can tell you personally these pipes are worth every cent. The bit is so comfortable and the pipe is so balanced you barely realize you're clenching it. The draw on it is effortless. The bowl coating on it is far superior to any other factory coating. The stem is fit perfectly and the finish on it is amazing.
I plan on buying many more Icarus or Neptune pipes and will suggest the brand(s) to any pipe smoker I meet.

 

brewshooter

Lifer
Jun 2, 2011
1,658
3
My God, it's been a long winter!
Not in California, mild and pleasant! We will be regretting it come Summer, when we are once again on water restrictions and begging the beating sun to go back from whence it came!

 

daimyo

Lifer
May 15, 2014
1,460
4
To me, it isn't a matter of opinion

Then we may have different definitions of the word fact. I think the biggest difference between our opinions though is that I do believe that spikes in popularity bring opportunists that truly only care about cashing in and will walk away from the hobby the second the popularity wanes. I've seen it happen in many hobbies and it seems to play out on a rather predictable arc. If these are the people being addressed then no, I do not feel they are owed respect. If I thought he was insulting honest pipe makers, I would also be upset. Your point does not elude me, I just don't agree.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,717
16,294
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
I hate to offend, but I use "whence" now and then. I've been know to use "hence" also. "Prithee?" Not so much. I will not be constrained in the words I choose to use. Egads! Has it come to this? Belittling someone's choice of words? Come on, dangnabit! That's just not right!
Prithee, can we not all share the sandbox? A wide and varied vocabulary should not cause a person to have to forfeit his his turn on the swings or slide. Nor, should a person's vocabulary subject them to denigrating observations; much less having to endure the taunts of his playmates.

 

daimyo

Lifer
May 15, 2014
1,460
4
Alright, now that was funny. Despite a difference of perception landing us on opposite sides of this table, welcome to the forum. I hope to see more of your pipes, opinions and witty banter with Warren in the future.

 

toddjohnson

Lurker
Feb 21, 2013
5
0
Flatticus,
To put it into context, many of the Pipe makers on Pipemakers forum are talented guys doing excellent work. However, a number of those guys--many of whom I've known for a long time--took what we're doing at Briarworks as some sort of attack on handmade pipes in general. Certainly it is not, and I think that all the pipe makers who were part of my intended audience understand that quite well now. In fact, I believe most of us agreed that the current pipe "trend" is diluting the level of quality we'd all like to see maintained, and it's worth taking some active steps to see it restored. The consensus seemed to be--in line with your own admonitions--that education is what's required, so I very much hope we can put something together that will educate and ultimately benefits the community as a whole.
The point I was trying to get across to my pipe making colleagues is that I hope the pipes Briarworks is making will discourage would-be profiteers from entering the market and drive some of the current hucksters out, thus keeping the level of quality high. I have no interest in limiting anyone's buying choices, but I do think we have an opportunity right now to take advantage of the uptick in pipe popularity and grow the number of pipe smokers in our hobby. I've seen far too many of them take an interest in pipes only to abandon the hobby because the pipes they chose didn't deliver the experience that a quality pipe should deliver. I think that's a lost opportunity. Especially since our hobby is already beset by anti-tobacco legislation, an aging consumer base, etc.
Anyway, your points are well taken, and whatever it is you wish me to concede, I gladly concede. I used poor judgement in expressing myself the way I did in a public forum. I'm told you've expressed negative opinions about Briarworks products before--I don't know if that's true or whether or not you own any--and since you entered the drawing for a free Briarworks pipe last Friday, I assumed you were in the market for a free Briarworks pipe. I didn't mean for the offer to be taken as offensive, quite the opposite. I meant it as a genuine conciliatory gesture. My thought was simply that, were you to see a Briarworks pipe in person, you might understand that my droning on about excellence, respect for the craft, etc. were absolutely sincere, not some self-interested move to sell pipes.
Admittedly I'm perturbed that social-media marketing about pipes has taken center-stage instead of the pipes themselves, and yes I've been blowing off some steam about it lately, but that's exactly the same thing that's being done here. I would welcome the opportunity to sit down with you in person and discuss these same things as people rather than online personalities. I suspect we would find we agree on more points than we don't. I am happy to end any pitched battle with you and wave the white flag. You've expressed opinions about me personally that I don't think you'd hold were we to sit down and have a discussion. Perhaps we can do just that at some pipe show in the not too distant future.
Todd

 

lonestar

Lifer
Mar 22, 2011
2,854
161
Edgewood Texas
The other thing that is left out of this debate is the intended audience for Todds remarks. The level of "discourse" on PMF IS often crude/childish/overblown, and mostly tongue in cheek. It is often a place where grown up pipe makers go to amuse themselves by acting like 5th graders. Some of the remarks in that thread tell the story!

While I don't agree with every opinion Todd has, I think his point is misconstrued, and some of that definitely has to do with the tone of the discussion, as much or more than the actual topics discussed.

 

daimyo

Lifer
May 15, 2014
1,460
4
Right Soy? Did three avid smokers really just turn down free pipes? Easily the most shocking thing about this thread.

:lol: :puffpipe:

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
606
Todd -
As Flatticus's representative on this subject, I would like to accept your kind offer of a free Briarworks pipe.

Where should I send my address?
"I am Flatticus."
"No, I am Flatticus."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8h_v_our_Q

 
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