So, you take a couple of "turd" pipes, put them a paper bag, place the bag on the crazy, old neighbor's stoop . . . . . . So, there is a valid use for the "turd" pipe!
I Bring You The Pipe Turds
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First post of the day. Two edits. I've got to finish that first cup before touching the keyboard.
I'm not one for big crowds either, but I still go to the West Coast Pipe Show every year. You get to see pipes in person that you probably would never have the chance to otherwise. There's always people with a 30yr old tin of Balkan Sobranie or some other out of production gem of the past blend and they're just letting people load a bowl up of it. On top of that you get to meet and interact with the carvers which I really like.
I think this thread got way out of hand. If you go to the link and read the posts from the PMF most of the other pipe makers on there share the sentiment that Todd expressed, that being inferior pipes are being sold well above their price range and it looks bad on all American carvers. It gives the impression in Denmark and Asia and so on that American carvers just care about the dollar and nothing else. They aren't true pipe makers because if they were they wouldn't let a pipe out of their shop with a gap between the stem and the shank or stain dripped into the bowl or the draft hole drilled so far off center you'd swear the guy was drunk when he drilled it. I have to say he has a valid point in that argument which I agree with.
At this point it seems those here that are opposed to Todd Johnson have convinced themselves that this is their sandbox and Todd's not welcome here, which is really a sad thing because Todd's a good guy.
I'll just leave it at this, it's your loss.
I think this thread got way out of hand. If you go to the link and read the posts from the PMF most of the other pipe makers on there share the sentiment that Todd expressed, that being inferior pipes are being sold well above their price range and it looks bad on all American carvers. It gives the impression in Denmark and Asia and so on that American carvers just care about the dollar and nothing else. They aren't true pipe makers because if they were they wouldn't let a pipe out of their shop with a gap between the stem and the shank or stain dripped into the bowl or the draft hole drilled so far off center you'd swear the guy was drunk when he drilled it. I have to say he has a valid point in that argument which I agree with.
At this point it seems those here that are opposed to Todd Johnson have convinced themselves that this is their sandbox and Todd's not welcome here, which is really a sad thing because Todd's a good guy.
I'll just leave it at this, it's your loss.
"The more I look at this stuff from him, the more I get pissed. I am so glad I don't have one of his pipes, I'd have to crush it under the heel of my boot to get rid of the bad ju ju that thing would bring."
"... if these pipe makers that I see their work day in and day out on the internets are really a bunch of thugs like Todd has given us a glimpse of and those guys who cuss a lot on that video, and there is some gang rift among pipemakers, then I know I don't want to go. I had rather not be disillusioned by this."
@cosmicfolklore
You summed my thoughts exactly
"... if these pipe makers that I see their work day in and day out on the internets are really a bunch of thugs like Todd has given us a glimpse of and those guys who cuss a lot on that video, and there is some gang rift among pipemakers, then I know I don't want to go. I had rather not be disillusioned by this."
@cosmicfolklore
You summed my thoughts exactly
To sum up: It is not the maker of the pipe who determines what is a pipe worth owning, it is the pipe smoker. The maker of a pipe can either serve the ego or the customer. Many times it is not possible to do both. This is especially true when making and selling a product which depends, in a large part, on esthetics.
I'm betting that most pipe buyers are first attracted to shape and proportion. I'll also suggest that a large percentage of pipe buyers are more concerned with how they and the pipe look to others, in tandem, than the nuances of the of fit, finish and "smokeability." Of course these observations do not apply to the general membership of this forum. Some of us simply want a pipe that looks "right" to our eye, that we are comfortable with, and smokes well. Others collect certain pipes based on certain criteria. Still others, look for a "perfect" smoker.
A pipe manufacturer is indeed lucky if they can carve out a small sliver of the market, enough to make a living on. What makes an acceptable pipe is a very subjective area. No one manufacturer is ever going to make a pipe, or line of pipes which will satisfy more than a small percentage of the market. Except perhaps Missouri Meersshaum.
I'm betting that most pipe buyers are first attracted to shape and proportion. I'll also suggest that a large percentage of pipe buyers are more concerned with how they and the pipe look to others, in tandem, than the nuances of the of fit, finish and "smokeability." Of course these observations do not apply to the general membership of this forum. Some of us simply want a pipe that looks "right" to our eye, that we are comfortable with, and smokes well. Others collect certain pipes based on certain criteria. Still others, look for a "perfect" smoker.
A pipe manufacturer is indeed lucky if they can carve out a small sliver of the market, enough to make a living on. What makes an acceptable pipe is a very subjective area. No one manufacturer is ever going to make a pipe, or line of pipes which will satisfy more than a small percentage of the market. Except perhaps Missouri Meersshaum.
Good morning all. I have a few minutes to respond before I head off to the salt mines studio. As I wrote, I found the PMF thread very interesting. While Mr Johnson's mission statement could be characterized as a bullying disparagement of his competition I can also see it as something different, a passionate, if intemperate and ill advised, expression of anger over people debasing the field to which both he, and many others whom he admires, have devoted themselves. And that seems to largely be the spirit in which it is taken in the PMF thread.
Moreover, his colleagues feel that the situation is so bad that they should consider creating a group to inform and educate consumers about what actually goes into the crafting of a quality pipe. They do so because they believe that the proliferation of pretty looking, high priced, poorly made pipes by beginners and opportunists is both a disservice to, and an insult to, consumers. And they also believe that consumers, having not spent hundreds or thousands of hours in the practice of actually perfecting the craft of making pipes, have a limited understanding as to what is involved. They are correct. Even the most erudite consumer amongst us is at best semi-literate in this regard.
In other threads I've expressed my own reserves about the artisan movement and about how it rewards vaunted claims of inefficiency and rough craftsmanship through the mystique of "handcrafted artisanship". As a successful professional artist and fellow artisan for the past 40+ years, I recognize "artistic" bullshit when I encounter it, and there is no shortage anywhere. Being a working artist, I'm also no stranger to unfortunate and intemperately violent expressions of professional anger over the perceived misdeeds of others so I don't get my knickers in a twist about such stuff.
At the WCPS I had the opportunity to view the pretty, and high priced, confections of some new carvers, one incidentally from Nashville who said to me in all sincerity that he was cashing in on the "gold rush" while the opportunity is there.
My interpretation of this was certainly broadened by reading the PMF thread. And the expressed characterization of THIS thread over there was interesting as well.
My intention is not to praise Todd Johnson's statement, but to point out an entirely different way to view it than has been hitherto presented. If you haven't read the PMF thread, you can't express an informed view.
YMMV. Gotta go.
Moreover, his colleagues feel that the situation is so bad that they should consider creating a group to inform and educate consumers about what actually goes into the crafting of a quality pipe. They do so because they believe that the proliferation of pretty looking, high priced, poorly made pipes by beginners and opportunists is both a disservice to, and an insult to, consumers. And they also believe that consumers, having not spent hundreds or thousands of hours in the practice of actually perfecting the craft of making pipes, have a limited understanding as to what is involved. They are correct. Even the most erudite consumer amongst us is at best semi-literate in this regard.
In other threads I've expressed my own reserves about the artisan movement and about how it rewards vaunted claims of inefficiency and rough craftsmanship through the mystique of "handcrafted artisanship". As a successful professional artist and fellow artisan for the past 40+ years, I recognize "artistic" bullshit when I encounter it, and there is no shortage anywhere. Being a working artist, I'm also no stranger to unfortunate and intemperately violent expressions of professional anger over the perceived misdeeds of others so I don't get my knickers in a twist about such stuff.
At the WCPS I had the opportunity to view the pretty, and high priced, confections of some new carvers, one incidentally from Nashville who said to me in all sincerity that he was cashing in on the "gold rush" while the opportunity is there.
My interpretation of this was certainly broadened by reading the PMF thread. And the expressed characterization of THIS thread over there was interesting as well.
My intention is not to praise Todd Johnson's statement, but to point out an entirely different way to view it than has been hitherto presented. If you haven't read the PMF thread, you can't express an informed view.
YMMV. Gotta go.
Damnit, there is still so much gold to be mined out of this thread, i love it! Would those lesser meerschaum carvers be making the dried up from the sun white turds?I wonder if there is an unknown to us Turkish website where Fikri Baki expresses his distaste for lesser meerschaum carvers. I would back him up.
Those gave me a good :rofl:
Both sides have very valid points and concerns. Pick your side, find the enemy and start swinging. I'll be up in the stands continuing to enjoy my popcorn, bourbon and mystery pipe which could be a poker turd, a dried up white turd, an anonymous factory pipe, or one of the godfather of the heath tree root himself, Mr. Todd Johnson's pipes.
This thread should be changed simply to read, "SHITSHOW!", and in all caps simply to break the golden rule #9 and fuel the controversy.
I just want to make it clear that even though I have questions about Briarworks, I still want one. Maybe the marketing half of the machine isn't put together so well but they deliver the goods. This thread has made me take a much closer look at my pipes, and I think that is mission accomplished as far as Briarworks marketing is concerned, regardless of whether I buy from them or not.
I can't wholly disagree with someone trying to equip the customer with more information, hopefully that part will become a trend in the industry.
I can't wholly disagree with someone trying to equip the customer with more information, hopefully that part will become a trend in the industry.
Flatticus, that is an awesome and hilarious (hopefully) true story! So the Viennese were sourcing the meer blocks from the Turks and carving them all themselves for sale to the public? I wonder if they actively tried to denounce and sabotage Turkish artisans from gaining so much as a small corner of the market to make a living from. Or if the Turkish just weren't making pipes out of their own resources and/or trying to make a solid effort to market their product.
It's true. If you head over to Instagram, there's all manner of hipster pipe turd makers over there. Check out these poseurs -- clearly they have no idea what they're doing. (Full disclosure, I think that last one made one of my favorite pipe turds, but whadda I know?)
Let me just chime in to say that I completely agree with the pith and substance of the sentiments expressed by Todd. The man has an opinion and expresses how he feels, and I for one admire that. I don't like people who sugar coat their opinions with love and warm feelings -- especially when their opinions are on the mark, as evidenced by the fact that I agree with them.
The simple fact is there are scads of crappy pipes out there being sold by pipemaking hucksters to consumers who don't have the knowledge to know any better and one only has to monitor facebook or instagram to see that. I personally have no firsthand knowledge as to whether the pipes made by Briarworks are any better than those. I do however have a couple of Todd's own pipes, and both are first rate, so I have high hopes that the Briarworks pipes are of a very high quality for their price point.
What troubles me about all the fly-by-night pipemakers out there who are turning out dreck to the masses is that many of those people may well leave the hobby because they never get to experience how a properly made pipe should feel and smoke. All of us should be concerned by that.
The simple fact is there are scads of crappy pipes out there being sold by pipemaking hucksters to consumers who don't have the knowledge to know any better and one only has to monitor facebook or instagram to see that. I personally have no firsthand knowledge as to whether the pipes made by Briarworks are any better than those. I do however have a couple of Todd's own pipes, and both are first rate, so I have high hopes that the Briarworks pipes are of a very high quality for their price point.
What troubles me about all the fly-by-night pipemakers out there who are turning out dreck to the masses is that many of those people may well leave the hobby because they never get to experience how a properly made pipe should feel and smoke. All of us should be concerned by that.
So as I read this thread, I see people who don't like how Mr. Johnson is representing himself and or his business and I see people who agree with his premise about protecting the pipe community from crappy high priced pipes. I think both arguments are valid. While I prefer talking about subjects as crappy pipes being overpriced in a more respectful manner, just by the sheer amount posts this thread has already generated it has forced more than a couple of us to actually see what was being talked about. The brash comments while unappealing to me, did get me to thinking more about the topic of pipe turd carvers. Maybe, I am way off on my observations and opinion but that is what I have taken away from this thread so far.
Firstly to Peck, thanks for your thoughts. I disagree with a bunch of it but there is no question that your point is well stated. What really catches my eye here is the notion that a "a properly made pipe" is somehow a magic experience as compared to a less than pipe. I do not believe that the vast majority of pipe smokers, say with one year or less under their belt, could tell a huge difference between a perfect hand carved pipe and a perfect factory pipe. Maybe I haven't had the worst possible drek pipe created but the idea that someone would be turned off by pipe smoking because the draft hole was 1/8" out of flush with the bottom of the chamber or the stem didn't meet the shank within a tolerance of .003" just doesn’t seem to add up for me.
j/B
...but, is it Todd's place to express that, especially in the vulgar way that he did? Peck, of course agrees, but I for one, as stated earlier, don't really feel that it his place, nor appreciate the tone he takes with them nor the consumers. It is berating us for being too stupid to know what we want.
When we have debates like this at The Briary with the inventory at hand to look at, there are Formers pipes with their quickly made stems that can't pass a cleaner selling for +$700 like hotcakes. Nording who has his mass produced for him, stummel and stem. There are Johs that just seem like the stem was an after thought. That hasn't hurt the Danish market any at all. And, those are renown pipemakers who just don't meet what some would call "high quality" selling for big bucks also. As Flaticus has said, there is no proof that this is hurting anyone.
There are jewelers out there that leave tool marks on rings shanks, settings sold in the mall where the stone rattles when you shake them. Cars are sold that turn over on curves. Hairdryers that don't work but a dozen times and you have to throw them away... Who appointed Todd (I can't call him Mr. Johnson, because that is my name, ha ha) as the high king and commander of the American pipemakers? And, who bestowed the power of cleaning up this market on him? No one, except his own grand ego.
I have said, his pipes are good quality, but as some of you may remember, I also think that quality is not objective. If someone learns to smoke with a Grabow, they may think that Dunhills stink. If someone learns to smoke on Missouri Meerschaums, they may think that a Becker smokes like garbage. If you learn to drive in a pickup truck, a Lamborghini may just not handle like that person expects. The Native Americans made do with a hollow reed and a piece of stone. Then the English made do with a clay pipe with two holes. Who set the standard for what is a "Quality pipe?" The Danish, French? I have pipes by Becker, Dunhill, Castello, Nording, Hilson, Grabow, Tinsky, Elliot, Davis, Silver Castle, MM... I have clay pipes, pipes that I made, pipes that were bought by people I don't know the names of, the list goes on, and all are of what one might call variable standards, variable price points. All of them I have learned how that pipe wants to be smoked. All smoke as good as the most expensive of my collection, once I have learned them. Dunhills did not come any easier to me than the Grabows. It's all based on what you know and expect.
Who set this standard? Pipemakers who want to have an edge over everyone else? Smokers? It's an artificial standard. And, if some kid makes a pipe and can get someone to pay $500 for it, that is great. What is going to happen? Will it gurgle like a bent Nording? Will it explode and hurt someone? Give me that turd pipe, I'll figure out how it wants to be smoked... as long as it is a bulldog or a stacked dublin, ha ha.
No, this is malarky. Todd is just being full of himself, and it doesn't make me want to give him my money. Some will. Peck will, haha. We are all big boys here, and we can make up our own minds. I don't want to hear Bob Dylan put down the Zack Brown Band. I don't want to hear Chrysler bitchin' about Kias. Tell me what is good about your product, and leave the judgement of others to me, the consumer. Eric Nording's injected widgit made stems do not hurt the Danish pipemaker image. Big heads with big mouths hurt a nation's image, and Todd has done more with his post to diminish the American pipemaker than decades of 16 year olds with their first lathe ever could. Maybe everyone doesn't feel as I do. maybe some of you who know these pipemakers better than me agree with him. That's you prerogative. I'd rather hear Peck or one of us badmouth a pipemaker than another pipemaker, because he has no dog in it, and I know where he would be coming from.
It seems like this gang mentality among these pipemakers on that forum are just overblown egos pissing in the corners to me.
And, as I peruse those pages and some of the garbage these guys think and say just turns me off to spending my money with them. If I were a pipemaker, I would just tend my own garden and leave my neighbor's garden alone. Work on your own products, and do the best you can. As far as I am concerned, Todd doesn't need to regulate the market for us. We are not stupid pipe smokers. We are not his cows. And, that sort of thinking hurts what could be great pipes. IMO.
Happy smokes guys :
:
When we have debates like this at The Briary with the inventory at hand to look at, there are Formers pipes with their quickly made stems that can't pass a cleaner selling for +$700 like hotcakes. Nording who has his mass produced for him, stummel and stem. There are Johs that just seem like the stem was an after thought. That hasn't hurt the Danish market any at all. And, those are renown pipemakers who just don't meet what some would call "high quality" selling for big bucks also. As Flaticus has said, there is no proof that this is hurting anyone.
There are jewelers out there that leave tool marks on rings shanks, settings sold in the mall where the stone rattles when you shake them. Cars are sold that turn over on curves. Hairdryers that don't work but a dozen times and you have to throw them away... Who appointed Todd (I can't call him Mr. Johnson, because that is my name, ha ha) as the high king and commander of the American pipemakers? And, who bestowed the power of cleaning up this market on him? No one, except his own grand ego.
I have said, his pipes are good quality, but as some of you may remember, I also think that quality is not objective. If someone learns to smoke with a Grabow, they may think that Dunhills stink. If someone learns to smoke on Missouri Meerschaums, they may think that a Becker smokes like garbage. If you learn to drive in a pickup truck, a Lamborghini may just not handle like that person expects. The Native Americans made do with a hollow reed and a piece of stone. Then the English made do with a clay pipe with two holes. Who set the standard for what is a "Quality pipe?" The Danish, French? I have pipes by Becker, Dunhill, Castello, Nording, Hilson, Grabow, Tinsky, Elliot, Davis, Silver Castle, MM... I have clay pipes, pipes that I made, pipes that were bought by people I don't know the names of, the list goes on, and all are of what one might call variable standards, variable price points. All of them I have learned how that pipe wants to be smoked. All smoke as good as the most expensive of my collection, once I have learned them. Dunhills did not come any easier to me than the Grabows. It's all based on what you know and expect.
Who set this standard? Pipemakers who want to have an edge over everyone else? Smokers? It's an artificial standard. And, if some kid makes a pipe and can get someone to pay $500 for it, that is great. What is going to happen? Will it gurgle like a bent Nording? Will it explode and hurt someone? Give me that turd pipe, I'll figure out how it wants to be smoked... as long as it is a bulldog or a stacked dublin, ha ha.
No, this is malarky. Todd is just being full of himself, and it doesn't make me want to give him my money. Some will. Peck will, haha. We are all big boys here, and we can make up our own minds. I don't want to hear Bob Dylan put down the Zack Brown Band. I don't want to hear Chrysler bitchin' about Kias. Tell me what is good about your product, and leave the judgement of others to me, the consumer. Eric Nording's injected widgit made stems do not hurt the Danish pipemaker image. Big heads with big mouths hurt a nation's image, and Todd has done more with his post to diminish the American pipemaker than decades of 16 year olds with their first lathe ever could. Maybe everyone doesn't feel as I do. maybe some of you who know these pipemakers better than me agree with him. That's you prerogative. I'd rather hear Peck or one of us badmouth a pipemaker than another pipemaker, because he has no dog in it, and I know where he would be coming from.
It seems like this gang mentality among these pipemakers on that forum are just overblown egos pissing in the corners to me.
And, as I peruse those pages and some of the garbage these guys think and say just turns me off to spending my money with them. If I were a pipemaker, I would just tend my own garden and leave my neighbor's garden alone. Work on your own products, and do the best you can. As far as I am concerned, Todd doesn't need to regulate the market for us. We are not stupid pipe smokers. We are not his cows. And, that sort of thinking hurts what could be great pipes. IMO.
Happy smokes guys :
:
It's also interesting that his blurb has hit social media like a firestorm. It seems to be working its way into all facets. Many people must feel the same way I do also. I have received a dozen emails from my local pipe buddies. It was even already being discussed when I walked into my favorite B&M. It's Facebooked, Twitted, reddit'd, forum'd, spread around like kudzu seeds. Despite what comes of this, maybe pipemakers with inflated egos may take note of this. This does provide a learning experience for others. Maybe after Briarwork's control groups get their image back on track, they'll take a new look at how they interact with their buddies out in the open. So, there may be good to come from this.
He could have presented his argument better, but I agree with Todd. I'd feel much more comfortable branching out to buy pipes from new makers if I knew the work would have a semblance of consistency, and the quality to back up the value. If anything, maybe it'll help to motivate new pipe makers to focus more on their craft. Rome wasn't built in a day, sure; it's also hard to see hard work get criticized, but I feel everyone stands to profit if the new wave of makers spend more time on overall quality v. quantity. Research goes a long way, and the internet is a useful tool.
To empathize- If I spent 15 years playing the violin and mastering the art of music, then all of a sudden a bunch of guys start playing and calling themselves master artists, my jimmies would get rustled too.
At the end of the day, we're all passionate about this thing. Breathe, and hope for the best in all things for our hobby.
To empathize- If I spent 15 years playing the violin and mastering the art of music, then all of a sudden a bunch of guys start playing and calling themselves master artists, my jimmies would get rustled too.
At the end of the day, we're all passionate about this thing. Breathe, and hope for the best in all things for our hobby.
The market, and only the market, in the long term, determines who is a maker bad, good and superior pipes. Admittedly, in the case of artists, musicians and, yes, pipe manufacturers some customers can be led astray, at least for a while. Fads aside, consumers determine, through their spending, who or what is worth their money.
A new pipe smoker would do well to learn before spending moneys on pipes. "Caveat emptor" is still a phrase worth remembering. It applies to buying cars, homes, fur coats, toilets, pistols, cereal, eggs, underwear, etc. The alternative is to get a very liberal return guarantee on any purchase. This is particularly true when contemplating spending what is personally a large sum of cash for a pipe.
Worth remembering is that there are pipe smokers who do not see the pipe as art and are only in the market for a "pipe." They want something that isn't ugly, holds a bit of tobacco and delivers smoke to the mouth. There is a market for the so called "turd" pipe obviously. I suppose each of us has a personal definition of what is or isn't a turd pipe. Many here consider certain marques to be turd pipes. Many here, see themselves to be the final arbiters as to what is or is not an acceptable pipe.
This thread reminds me of the dog chasing its tail. We've caught the tail once or twice but, we will return again and again to the chase simply because it is amusing to do so. If we do not overstep Kevin's boundaries this thread could go on and on. In a sense while my count will go up . . . I will become deeply saddened.
A new pipe smoker would do well to learn before spending moneys on pipes. "Caveat emptor" is still a phrase worth remembering. It applies to buying cars, homes, fur coats, toilets, pistols, cereal, eggs, underwear, etc. The alternative is to get a very liberal return guarantee on any purchase. This is particularly true when contemplating spending what is personally a large sum of cash for a pipe.
Worth remembering is that there are pipe smokers who do not see the pipe as art and are only in the market for a "pipe." They want something that isn't ugly, holds a bit of tobacco and delivers smoke to the mouth. There is a market for the so called "turd" pipe obviously. I suppose each of us has a personal definition of what is or isn't a turd pipe. Many here consider certain marques to be turd pipes. Many here, see themselves to be the final arbiters as to what is or is not an acceptable pipe.
This thread reminds me of the dog chasing its tail. We've caught the tail once or twice but, we will return again and again to the chase simply because it is amusing to do so. If we do not overstep Kevin's boundaries this thread could go on and on. In a sense while my count will go up . . . I will become deeply saddened.
I've got a Nording rusticated bulldog that Lora says looks like a steaming turd on a stick when I smoke it, but it's a damn fine smoker. So, I mostly smoke it in the garden, ha ha!!
This thread is like a written version of one of those YouTube road-rage videos, where some guy gets insulted while driving, then chases the insulter for miles through traffic, waving a handgun and shouting the entire time.
You relentlessness is remarkable, Flatticus. You've made your point, and Todd explained himself (and graciously owned up to his mistakes in judgment) long ago. Why the determined pursuit? Anger issues, maybe?
You relentlessness is remarkable, Flatticus. You've made your point, and Todd explained himself (and graciously owned up to his mistakes in judgment) long ago. Why the determined pursuit? Anger issues, maybe?
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