How God Punishes Arrogance

[mustanggt]

I am born and raised a Catholic but strayed away from the Church after I was on my own. I struggled for quite awhile with my faith and sometimes wondered if God really existed. When my first daughter was born it remove all my doubt about His existence. When I was at the lowest point of my life He answered my prayer and helped me get back up again and get healthy so I could meet and marry my wife who was a gift from Him.

 

[numbersix]

I think your questions and statements are very important and valuable to any conversation in theology or philosophy.

Thanks locopony.

A few related books you may find of interest

Thanks Brian - I am familiar with most of those believe it or not. Funny, I've been seeing your posts and we seem to be coming from a very similar POV.

 

[numbersix]

remove all my doubt about His existence

I read a lot of atheist posts on reddit, and I think where a lot people get diverted is the argument of a loving God allowing evil. This is such a paradox that to an atheist, it's an impossible idea. And in Isaiah it says "I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all of these things".
This is a telling passage IMHO. Combine this with the idea that Adam and Eve were only kicked out of Eden (a place of perfection) when they learned of "good and evil" and became like God. This knowledge is what causes us to pass judgments (recall Jesus admonished us not to judge)
From this we know that God knows of good and evil, in Isaiah it goes so far as to say that God actually creates both and it is the knowledge of these opposites that got us kicked out of Eden and causes us continuing suffering. What's interesting to me is that in eastern thought, esp Buddhism and Hinduism, it is taught that it is our very knowledge of good and evil (what they call the "opposites" of creation) that separates us from God.

"The Great Way is not difficult

for those not attached to preferences.

When neither love nor hate [re: the opposites] arises,

all is clear and undisguised.

Make the smallest distinction, however,

and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to know the truth,

then hold to no opinions for or against anything.

To set up what you like against what you dislike

is the disease of the mind."

—Hsin Hsin MIng
Once again, I hope I haven't offended anyone with these comments and if I've gone too far, mods, feel free to delete.

 

[brian64]

Insightful comments numbersix. I think of “the fall” as primarily a fall into duality. A multitude of dualities are used by the powers that be to manage human perceptions. Getting at the truth in any issue requires transcending the dualistic arguments.

 

[estumpf]

The original statement at the beginning was someone who claimed that by eating and living a healthy lifestyle they were guaranteed to live a long life. Then they didn't. Human opinions on God are just guesses. Some guess there is no god, others guess there must be some greater power. In the end the limitations of the human being is what is shown. As a Christian the revelation of who that greater power is is found in the Bible. Again, some may read the words and draw many different conclusions based in part from their view points. I believe faith is not something a person creates, it is not like a conviction based on a human judgment or conclusion. Faith is created when the Word bearing the message of God for man is received and establishes itself in the person. In the Gospels some heard Jesus and believe. Some heard the very same words, but did not believe. Peter said to Jesus, "To whom shall we go, you have the words of eternal life." These were not Peter's words. They were words given to him. Life was not in his creation, but a gift given to him.

 

[numbersix]

I think of “the fall” as primarily a fall into duality.

Yes, that is how I see it too.

 

[mustanggt]

There is one thing I do the most when I smoke is think. I've had conversations with myself and with God about life. The more I've contemplated the more I've seen that life is right and wrong, black and white, good choice and bad choice. I think the better I see this distinction the less gray I see. In reality there are only good or bad choices to be made. God blessed me with good parents who taught me right from wrong and the consequences for not making the right decision. They also saw to it that I had a good moral grounding so I would be better able to make those right and wrong decisions. Of course that didn't stop me from making some really poor decisions in my life which I made all on my own and which I was shown the folly of those decisions in short order. I really feel sorry for people that only see gray and very little black or white. How different the world must look to someone who views it through the prism of moral relativism. I'm glad that we have been able to talk about this in the manner that we have. Good conversation.

 

[brian64]

I really feel sorry for people that only see gray and very little black or white. How different the world must look to someone who views it through the prism of moral relativism.

I agree that there is a very real struggle in this world of good vs evil, and we should not take a stance of moral relativism. But the issue of duality, imo, is that much of the time we are presented with false choices, where people tend to support the lesser of two evils...or take sides in an argument where neither side is actually fully correct.

 

[phred]

I really feel sorry for people that only see gray and very little black or white. How different the world must look to someone who views it through the prism of moral relativism.

It's really not that bad... Just because I define "black" as "really, really dark gray" and "white" as "really, really light gray" doesn't mean that I have no moral compass. It just means that I can see East North East, North West, and South South West in addition to North and South. Frankly, if I'd stuck with the absolutist values I was raised with, I'd have never started smoking a pipe. :D

 

[allan]

Man, this is one heavy conversation!
I'm not in agreement with Mustang on black and white. I've learned that when I have espoused absolutes I've later found that I have been incorrect. More information was available to me and now I try to lay back and listen to the other side. One obvious example of absolutes are commandment of 'thou shalt not kill'. Several theologies suggest that no matter what, war or defense of family is no cause to take up arms.
I suppose we can argue that point on either side, but when Nazi Germany was exterminating 6 million Jews and millions of Catholics and other deemed 'inferior' peoples, well...
You may not have meant that exactly, but my point is that beautiful as the 10 commandments are, for me they are not necessarily absolutes.
IMHO the bible is a beautfully crafted prose, written by men. (supposedly devinely inspired). Remember the find of ancient scrolls (I think in Israel, but not sure) a couple of years ago with some contradictory writings?
Allan

 

[mustanggt]

Brian, I agree with you about all the false choices that we have that become the lesser of two evils. That's the way the people that control things want it.
Allan, going from what I personally believe for myself to the Nazis killing millions of people is breathtaking. We are defined by our experiences in life and I've gone through a lot to get where I am today. Based on those experiences I have very well defined philosophies that are based on those experiences. I espouse to do my best everyday and be better than the day before. I am human. I stumble and fall then get back up again I work to be better than the day before. It is your choice whether to believe in a particular religion or not just as it is your choice whether to follow the 10 commandments or not.
phred, Obviously you made a good decision to pick up the pipe. Benjamin Franklin once said Beer is proof that God wants us to be happy. I say add pipe tobacco to that too!!! ::

 

[foggymountain]

Re the 10 Commandments Mel Brooks was right. There were originally 15. One of the missing ones was "Thou shalt not become wealthy from the sick and dying" What do you think the other 4 were?

 

[foggymountain]

No ideas? Maybe Thou shalt not profit from another's dwelling?

 

[locopony]

According to Socrates a thing is not truly defined or a form until it is defined beyond all exceptions. Until then you really dont have a true meaning. Now this takes alot of work. Its not a matter of simple explanation. He uses the example of a sword. If you borrow a sword from a man it is right to return it, but is it right to return it at a moment when he is asking for it so that he might murder someone. You see this does not make moral relativism it makes a deeper investigation into the matter required as morality becomes more complicated. Its no longer as simple as, it is right to return anything you borrow from someone. If you borrow money from a man it is right to repay him just maybe not at the moment he is hauling himself up a shear face with a rope. Moral principles can be trumped by more important issues at hand. Saving a person from a bog may out weigh keeping a borrowed suit clean. Grey areas only exist in matters of opinion for example ; how much money a person should spend on a pipe.

 

[igloo]

If there were no God ,man would have invented him .

 

[kashmir]

This has been a great conversation. About God no less. And everyone has been so well behaved. Quite a lot to ponder. Kudos to all.

 

[brian64]

@phred & locopony: +1, very well said.
While there is good and evil in the world, no human being is ever 100% one or the other. Too complicated to delve into all of the complexities and implications here, but one has to have some understanding of Jungian psychology...shadow projection, etc.
Also, evil is easy to recognize when it wears a black hat, but it’s seldom that simple outside of old westerns.
EDIT: There is also the distinction between the personal and the collective, which adds a whole other dimension to it all. There is a very good book by M. Scott Peck titled People of the Lie that sheds a lot of light on the subject of human evil, both personal and collective.
One other thing worth adding...Paul Levy also writes a lot of very interesting and insightful stuff regarding evil from a Jungian perspective:
Awaken In The Dream

http://www.awakeninthedream.com/wordpress/

 

[phil22]

Peck was a believer and I am happy to say was a personal friend. "People of the Lie" was a brilliant work IMO.

 

[locopony]

If there were no God ,man would have invented him .

based on what information do you make this statement?

 

[brewshooter]

I always avoid posting in this type of thread.