Historical accuracy of important events

[Zzzapipe]

D

What's your point? Now claiming it was inaccurate? What difference does it make your teachers were Jesuit?

If you think photographs of hunters posing with their kill is macabre, how would you feel about bulldozers moving mounds of human bodies into mass graves?

My point was that a film was chosen, and loaded into a film projector, and shown to a classroom full of children.

Was that history class the best use of their time?

I’m a father of adolescent boys and school course selection for next year was a discussion we were having.

I kind of wish someone explained this to me, it would have helped to not take school and the associated pressure around assignments, exams, and deadlines. Especially around subjects pertaining to history.

 

[huntertrw]

I don't know enough to assign numerical values. Accordingly I must rely on the opinions of certain others.

Take your pick:

In Ambrose Bierce's "The Devil's Dictionary" he defines the word "History" as:
'"n. An account, mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools."

In that same vein, Napoleon Bonaparte once said, "History is a set of lies agreed upon."

Winston Churchill is quoted as saying, "History is written by the victors."

George Orwell wrote, "The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history."

And finally, H.G. Wells once wrote, "History is a race between education and catastrophe."

 

[Kobold]

Next you'll be telling me he could actually tell a lie! If I find out Columbus didn't discover America I'm not leaving the house for a month.

“He discovered America is what he did! He was a great Italian explorer! And in this house Christopher Columbus is a hero! End of story!"

 

[WerewolfOfLondon]

I very much doubt history is taught inaccurately in any of the educational institutions in the western world. Certainly not here in the UK. The history that is taught is accurate. For instance, you will be given the correct dates of the start and finish of the Second World War, you'll be accurately told who the belligerents were, you'll be given accurate transcripts of all the famous speeches, you'll explore the causes of that war, and you'll even cover controversial topics regarding what the allied powers did after the First World War that made the Second more likely. Our educational system is certainly not so bad that pupils are given inaccurate information.

Of course what is and isn't taught is a different question, that's where we move from history to politics, and hence where the convo ends. Suffice to say though, that it isn't true that history is written by the victor, at least not where the victors are ideologically committed to freedom of speech. You can go into any bookshop and find them full to the brim about Britain's colonial past, or about war crimes committed in the First and Second Wars. It may not be taught in secondary education (or high school), but the information is out there. The benefits of living in what Karl Popper called 'open societies'.

 

[WerewolfOfLondon]

“He discovered America is what he did! He was a great Italian explorer! And in this house Christopher Columbus is a hero! End of story!"

Tony was a great scholar lol.

 

[brian64]

You can tell that people get real uncomfortable when faced with the fact that accepted history is often fiction.

It's weird... Almost like they already know but they have sworn an oath to themselves to ignore it.

What I've noticed over the years, when it comes to "important events", is that most people are at least willing to consider the inaccuracy of official history when it is something sufficiently far in the past (with the exception of a few specific events that are considered sacred and above questioning).

But if an "important event" is too recent (or maybe even current) that's when most people are real uncomfortable with questioning official narratives.

 

[warren]

If I find out Columbus didn't discover America I'm not leaving the house for a month.

He didn't. Well, he did but, for himself. Lot's of folks sailed to the continent before Columbus. So, enjoy your self-imposed confinement.

There's a big difference to writing history and "interpreting" or, analyzing historical events. Too many confuse the two. Analyzing events is an author's opinion/interpretation. History is dry, simply events and dates. With analysis....it can be misleading, it can be factual, and it can be complete fantasy. Depends on your own mindset and ability to distill facts from fiction/opinion. And there in lays the problem, too many folks can't think critically.

 

[Sig]

Both of my parents were school teachers. My dad taught 6th grade for 51 years. My mom taught various high school classes over 40 years.
My dad is a huge history guy. He loves reading about it, but didn't love teaching it. He was not technically supposed to teach out of the curriculum, but he strayed into "dangerous" territory sometimes.
Sixth grade is old enough to learn about history, but not mature enough to discern truth from fiction. My dad did tell them about Columbus, the more real story than the 6th grade History books.
But a lot of stuff he skipped over. He says parents didn't want their kids to learn "real" history, they wanted their kids to learn the history THEY learned 20+ years previously. Math, science, English....the parents wanted the most current stuff. But history doesn't change in their minds. They want their kids to learn Columbus found American.

 

[warren]

I think most folks choose their "truths" based on whether they wish to be calmed or inflamed.

 

[Alejo R.]

The news article says nothing about what the files contain. It only says that Javier Milei ordered the declassification of the files. Knowing the Argentine military, there's going to be little to nothing. Two war criminals were found in Argentina: Adolf Eichmann, a true Nazi leader, and Erich Priebke, a minor officer who committed a massacre in Rome. Both with false passports issued by European countries or organizations. At a time when 900,000 immigrants arrived in Argentina. The rest is Hollywood. Now, I'll post two photos below: one of Eichmann's house. It had no running water or electricity and was on a dirt road. He was captured by the Mossad while returning from his job at a private company on public transportation. And don't make the mistake of thinking that all the houses had not running water and not electricity. My house was built around the same time and had electricity, running water, and natural gas from the start. The second house was the home of Wernher von Braun, a member of the SS, factotum for thousands of London dead, and eventual director of NASA. Which country really protected the Nazis?

 

[SBC]

The second house was the home of Wernher von Braun, a member of the SS, factotum for thousands of London dead, and eventual director of NASA. Which country really protected the Nazis?

Darn straight. It's unarguable that the US hired several prominent Nazis following the war. Look into MK Ultra.

 

[Briar Lee]

Miss Lois —Do you know who, Colin Kelly III is, class? Anybody?

(Miss Lois was the headline pretty girl singer of the 1946 Camdenton J Bar H Rodeo and she looks sort of like a cross between Elizabeth Taylor and Natalie Wood. She has a wooden paddle in her desk and she will absolutely beat your ass with it if you flirt with her. She is dangerous. She was my Mama)

Smart Little Lizzy -Colin Kelly III according to the World Book graduated from West Point on his own merits even though his father Colin Kelly II was the first American hero of World War Two who stayed in his burning B-17 bomber long enough for his crew to escape after they had sank a Japanese battleship three days after Pearl Harbor in defense of the Philippines.

(Miss Lois and Smart Little Lizzy are buddies. Miss Lois assigned her that question. Lizzy has a set of World Books at home. Miss Lois has her guitar over on a stand. This will be good)


Miss Lois has assigned several in class something to look up about Pearl Harbor, and other students report how the USS Arizona is a shrine, the Oklahoma was salvaged to make other battleships, and how America salvaged all the other battleships damaged at Pearl Harbor,

And then Miss Lois says in the dark days after Pearl Harbor, when the Japanese snuck up early one bright Sunday morning on December Seventh Nineteen Hundred and Forty One, Colin Kelly lifted up America’s morale by sinking the Japanese battleship Haruna in defense of the Philippines, and inspired the first country record to sell one million copies.

Colin Kelly died so that we all might live free.

And she’d sit on a stool and just kill it.

There’s a Star Spangled Banner Waving Somewhere

Pretty Young Random Schoolteacher Miss Destiny Version

Louvin Brothers version

Kelly only damaged a light cruiser.

But with men still trapped on the USS Oklahoma—-Pearl Harbor smelling like a charnel house—Coxswain Urban Hershel Malow not even buried yet—

Urban Herschel Marlow (1915-1941) - Find a Grave...

Local man among fatalities of Pearl Harbor Attack. Dec. 7 2016 marked the 75th Anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack which took place on a Sunday morning of 1941. The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked the American Army and Navy base in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. The attack came by complete...

www.findagrave.com

They thought it was battleship Haruna, dammit.

Miss Charlotte (runner up Miss Missouri) taught us the Legend of Colin Kelly, but by then I’d already seen Mama practice it at home all those times before. She’d never teach in a school where I was a student.

Those old teachers might have only whipped one or two smart aleck boys their entire careers.

One of them preached my mother’s funeral, where she went to her reward wearing full make up and high heels.

I cannot imagine the violence against a boy that even imagined the moon landings were faked.

It would be about the same as pissing on Colin Kelly’s hallowed grave, you know?

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

D

If you think photographs of hunters posing with their kill is macabre, how would you feel about bulldozers moving mounds of human bodies into mass graves?

My point was that a film was chosen, and loaded into a film projector, and shown to a classroom full of children.

Was that history class the best use of their time?

I’m a father of adolescent boys and school course selection for next year was a discussion we were having.

I kind of wish someone explained this to me, it would have helped to not take school and the associated pressure around assignments, exams, and deadlines. Especially around subjects pertaining to history.

Which has what to do with accuracy? Sounds like a film that was historically accurate, not inaccurate, and now the thread is about the level of reality/age of kids and so forth. I assume you are involved and know or should know what's happening in your kids' classes. Really nothing to do with some national poll, nothing to do with anything being historically inaccurate, just being a good parent. No doubt you are.

 

[Zzzapipe]

It would be obviously impossible for anyone to know how exactly der Fuhrer died without being there.

I know how it was taught to me and how it is written in the school’s history books.

If it was a simple and undisputed fact, how can there be even a suggestion of an alternative?

How accurate do you think that fact in history was?

100% or something else?

Is it even important?

I wouldn’t have read/responded to any of these posts if I wasn’t interested in it myself. Not trying to stir up anything that hasn’t already been said. There have already been countless famous quotes about the authenticity of history.

I appreciate the responses and to be transparent, reflect what I have heard when I asked this question to people in person. The majority understand that it is simply “his” “story”.

To truly understand anything would involve more questions and more investigation and more communication and critical thinking. Redirecting or reducing the conversation doesn’t help.

The majority of us know and believe this. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Please enjoy this joke by the late Norm MacDonald.

 

[georged]

Lemme see if I can spell this right:

SRSLY?

Yup, I think that's ^^^^ it.


And then comes:

WTF?

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

This has been pointless and I fell for it, and the OP is hung up on the Third Reich for some reason.

Back to things about pipes ….

 

[sablebrush52]

It would be obviously impossible for anyone to know how exactly der Fuhrer died without being there.

I know how it was taught to me and how it is written in the school’s history books.

If it was a simple and undisputed fact, how can there be even a suggestion of an alternative?

How accurate do you think that fact in history was?

100% or something else?

Is it even important?

I wouldn’t have read/responded to any of these posts if I wasn’t interested in it myself. Not trying to stir up anything that hasn’t already been said. There have already been countless famous quotes about the authenticity of history.

I appreciate the responses and to be transparent, reflect what I have heard when I asked this question to people in person. The majority understand that it is simply “his” “story”.

To truly understand anything would involve more questions and more investigation and more communication and critical thinking. Redirecting or reducing the conversation doesn’t help.

The majority of us know and believe this. Don’t pretend otherwise.

Please enjoy this joke by the late Norm MacDonald.

The one thing one could say is that Hitler wound up dead, no matter how he got there.

But your point about needing to be present at events is an important one. But even Sergei Eisenstein understood that an event could be interpreted differently by different witnesses.

And if one wasn’t in the room, one is interpreting events.

We are the product of our life experiences, and will interpret concepts such as “virtue” differently from someone living in the 18th century.

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

The one thing one could say is that Hitler wound up dead, no matter how he got there.

But your point about needing to be present at events is an important one. But even Sergei Eisenstein understood that an event could be interpreted differently by different witnesses.

And if one wasn’t in the room, one is interpreting events.

We are the product of our life experiences, and will interpret concepts such as “virtue” differently from someone living in the 18th century.

I think it’s been a bunch of chain yanking in the end, but channeling “the room where it happens” brings back memories of “Hamilton”.

 

[sablebrush52]

I think it’s been a bunch of chain yanking in the end, but channeling “the room where it happens” brings back memories of “Hamilton”.

There is an element of chain yanking, but there is also an opportunity to discuss an interesting subject other than "How do I clean my pipe?". It's in how one approaches the opportunity.

 

[Olkofri]

Next you'll be telling me he could actually tell a lie! If I find out Columbus didn't discover America I'm not leaving the house for a month.

He actually did not. Hope you have enough tobacco to last you for a month.

Leif Eiriksson beat him to it by almost 500 years. And even Leif couldn't claim discovery, for Bjarni Herjolfsson sighted the continent first.