Guns!
- Thread starter eightywon
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I believe the OP suggested that the weapon was for home protection and the range. No mention of concealed carry. Nothing surpasses the scatter canon for such duty.
I can speak from experience that stopping power is indeed an important consideration. The ME said that any of five of the 20 hits should have killed immediately. The man simply refused to die when his heart told him he was indeed dead. While I am a firm believer in the double tap and then raise the sights, things sometimes do not go as if on the range. I want big, expanding rounds with lots of attendant hydrostatic damage. When I have the time a nice clean head shot is indeed the shot of choice. Sometimes you have to take what the bad guy gives you. By the way, none of the above was discussed in a gun store. The squad room, the range, the post shooting interviews, etc, yes. Gun store? Not to my knowledge. And the above is indeed fact. And yes, rounds did indeed rattle around the trailer park during the engagement.
Backstop and penetration are indeed to be considered if you are faced with a target and the backstop is a thin, interior with your baby sleeping on the other side. I want a round that sheds as much of its energy in the target as possible, not in the kid.
I can speak from experience that stopping power is indeed an important consideration. The ME said that any of five of the 20 hits should have killed immediately. The man simply refused to die when his heart told him he was indeed dead. While I am a firm believer in the double tap and then raise the sights, things sometimes do not go as if on the range. I want big, expanding rounds with lots of attendant hydrostatic damage. When I have the time a nice clean head shot is indeed the shot of choice. Sometimes you have to take what the bad guy gives you. By the way, none of the above was discussed in a gun store. The squad room, the range, the post shooting interviews, etc, yes. Gun store? Not to my knowledge. And the above is indeed fact. And yes, rounds did indeed rattle around the trailer park during the engagement.
Backstop and penetration are indeed to be considered if you are faced with a target and the backstop is a thin, interior with your baby sleeping on the other side. I want a round that sheds as much of its energy in the target as possible, not in the kid.
Don't go cheap! Stay away from brands like Hi-Point and the like.
Do your homework. Look up as many reviews as you can on whatever gun you're looking at.
If you find one you think is interesting, get on YouTube and see if you can find a video on it by hickock45, gunblast, or nutnfancy.
Do your homework. Look up as many reviews as you can on whatever gun you're looking at.
If you find one you think is interesting, get on YouTube and see if you can find a video on it by hickock45, gunblast, or nutnfancy.
Minor correction Zeke: Although you may not be allowed to own full auto in you locale, many of us here in the US can and do own machine guns. I won't go into the minutia, but suffice it say that you are misinformed on the subject. I do not recommend a full-auto weapon, though for the average home defender. That is what flame throwers are for. And grenade launchers.
Warren I agree with you 100%...I would also suggest a .45 over anything else. I pay about 75 cents per round where I am so I think a .40 would do nicely too! And cheaper. One must also think, when is the most likely time that you will need a home rotection gun? When your not expecting it! Thats when the scatter gun comes into play. For practice though a nice little .22 rounds are cheap. The OP must truly decide what will work good for him and based on a huge number of factors.
I couldn't disagree more! We all have many other hobbies and like to discuss them. Thats what the general discussion forum is for.
I couldn't disagree more! We all have many other hobbies and like to discuss them. Thats what the general discussion forum is for.
The U.S. Army were the ones who discovered that there is such a thing as stopping power. During the campaign against the Moros in the Phillipines, the .38s they had weren't stopping the Moros who were hopped up on opium. So the search went on and the .45ACP M1911A1 is what they came up with. Not that other calibers don't stop anyone, but the U.S. Army were the ones who initiated the stopping power discussion after personal experience. I don't think the U.S. Army did things based off of hearsay or conjecture during a time period they had to account for every penny spent. Certain units within the U.S. military have been going back to the .45ACP recently. Since the ammo is certainly heavier than 9mm and one can carry less, there must be a valid reason for it. Again, that's not saying the .45ACP is a magic bullet. But, I daresay it's close.
I agree with zekest. Figure out what you want the firearm for and base your decision on that. The benefit of choosing 9mm would be cheaper ammo. Find a pistol that fits your hand that is comfortable to hold, if you aren't going to carry it around size won't matter as much.
Personally, I like the smith and wesson M&P series. You can get them with or without a thumb safety if you like/don't like that sort of thing.
Personally, I like the smith and wesson M&P series. You can get them with or without a thumb safety if you like/don't like that sort of thing.
woodsroad: I agree.
A friend of mine has fully automatic 9mm "machine guns", five of them, he also owns a range, and rents them to customers to use at his range. He was telling me that every time a customer comes back to the front desk, grinning from ear-to-ear, asking for another two or three boxes of 9mm...well he said the ATF tax stamps were worth every penny. Last time I was there he was selling boxes of 9mm for $40 a box. Good return on investment for him!
A friend of mine has fully automatic 9mm "machine guns", five of them, he also owns a range, and rents them to customers to use at his range. He was telling me that every time a customer comes back to the front desk, grinning from ear-to-ear, asking for another two or three boxes of 9mm...well he said the ATF tax stamps were worth every penny. Last time I was there he was selling boxes of 9mm for $40 a box. Good return on investment for him!
If I could only keep one of my pistols, it would be my 1950 Walther P38 in 9mm. I've had malfunctions with Beretta, Sig and Glock but never with the Walther.
I believe S&W purchased Walter and moved production to the USA. Not sure about the quality of the newer P38's but I do have a new P22 for plinking that seems to be a quality piece. Haven't shot it enough to really judge. My P38 was made in Germany. The gun was left to me when the original owner passed.
I believe S&W purchased Walter and moved production to the USA. Not sure about the quality of the newer P38's but I do have a new P22 for plinking that seems to be a quality piece. Haven't shot it enough to really judge. My P38 was made in Germany. The gun was left to me when the original owner passed.
The most reliable hand cannon that I own is a 1953 Czech CZ-52, in 7.62x25. I have run in excess of 3k rounds through it without a single failure. I did have some ammo failures, blown primers on degraded Bulgarian ammo from 1953, but the gun itself is a cross between a Timex and an M48 tank. It just keeps on ticking. Not a very conventional carry gun, but with 91gr JHP's that move 1300 fps, it's not a poor performer.
I have pretty small hands and I love my Walther PPQ M2 9mm. Another great gun for a beginner at a great price is the Bersa Thunder .380. Dead accurate and easy to shoot. Caliber is important but only if you're accurate with it. A .45 is only good if you can hit your target accurately and consistently with it.
Your home invasion gun fight is probably going to be at less than 12 feet separation. One shouldn't even need to acquire a sight picture. Just point and shoot . . . call your attorney and then 911. Advise cops that you are "lawyered up" and say nothing. I mean nothing.
As odd as it sounds, a .45 is easier to shoot than a 9mm, or a 40, because the 9mm and 40 are high compression rounds. The avg .45 tops off at 750 feet per second (fps) whereas the 9mm is in the 1,000 fps range, never mind the +P, and, shudder, the +P+ rounds in the 1,500 fps range.
Most guns chambered in .45 are the 1911 style heavy steel babies, real pussy cats to shoot.
Rule of thumb, the bigger (and thus heavy) the gun, the lower the recoil. Little "pocket guns" recoil in the pain level for the inexperienced. I can shoot a S&W Airweight all day long (if all day long is one or two hours) without major discomfort. I once shot a S&W Airweight in .357, a Ladysmith, once, and never again, one round was enough for me.
Most guns chambered in .45 are the 1911 style heavy steel babies, real pussy cats to shoot.
Rule of thumb, the bigger (and thus heavy) the gun, the lower the recoil. Little "pocket guns" recoil in the pain level for the inexperienced. I can shoot a S&W Airweight all day long (if all day long is one or two hours) without major discomfort. I once shot a S&W Airweight in .357, a Ladysmith, once, and never again, one round was enough for me.
This is an absolute fact. The first person I ever killed was in 1969, 45 years ago, and I can still remember his face. Taking a life is not something to be done lightly. It does, however, beat the hell out of letting someone else take your life,
If you decide that you can accept the responsibility, then make the commitment to do it right. Find a reputable gun shop that has a good training program. Talk to someone knowledgeable about what you want. Test fire a few different weapons to find out what you're comfortable with. Don't make a quick decision. Take the time to find a weapon that's right for you, your life may depend on it.
I second the recommendation of .45ACP. It has more recoil, but it is less snappy to me than the .40, more shove than kick. It's been around forever and ammo is plentiful, with really great options in expanding and full metal jacket projectiles. I am really just not a fan of the .40, it has never impressed me. Its parent, the 10mm is a favorite, but the .40 is always too much or not enough.
I usually shoot a 1911, and in those I am a Colt man. To me it is the ultimate pistol, a natural shooter, great for self defense and great on the range. Of course it is the pistol I have the longest experience with, you may not like it at all. If you don't want to spend the money on the Colt (around $1000) try Springfield, Rock Island Arms (cheap but I've been really surprised at their performance) or Ruger. Other designs I like available in .45 are the Sig-Sauer P227 (great grip, feels more like a 9mm gripframe than a .45), the H&K USP and the Springfield.
If the .45 is not you cup of tea, or is just too big, I would suggest the 9mm, and look at my second favorite auto, the Browning HiPower. It was designed by JM Browning, after he designed the 1911 and is very similar (some say improved, some are wrong). It is a smooth, good shooting pistol, and Browning puts out a great product (also those marked FN are kosher). I do not recommend any of the "off brand" HiPowers from FEG or the various copies the Israelis and Turks and others have done.
Whatever you get, make yourself familiar with your pistol. Go to the range and practice, and practice with what you will keep loaded at home. A lot of guys buy cheap ball ammo to shoot at the range and never shoot their premium self defense ammo "because its over a dollar a round." Semi-autos can be finicky about the bullet shapes they feed. If you never test, you won't know till the chips are down. A $50 box of .45 is cheap compared to a hospital or funeral bill.
I usually shoot a 1911, and in those I am a Colt man. To me it is the ultimate pistol, a natural shooter, great for self defense and great on the range. Of course it is the pistol I have the longest experience with, you may not like it at all. If you don't want to spend the money on the Colt (around $1000) try Springfield, Rock Island Arms (cheap but I've been really surprised at their performance) or Ruger. Other designs I like available in .45 are the Sig-Sauer P227 (great grip, feels more like a 9mm gripframe than a .45), the H&K USP and the Springfield.
If the .45 is not you cup of tea, or is just too big, I would suggest the 9mm, and look at my second favorite auto, the Browning HiPower. It was designed by JM Browning, after he designed the 1911 and is very similar (some say improved, some are wrong). It is a smooth, good shooting pistol, and Browning puts out a great product (also those marked FN are kosher). I do not recommend any of the "off brand" HiPowers from FEG or the various copies the Israelis and Turks and others have done.
Whatever you get, make yourself familiar with your pistol. Go to the range and practice, and practice with what you will keep loaded at home. A lot of guys buy cheap ball ammo to shoot at the range and never shoot their premium self defense ammo "because its over a dollar a round." Semi-autos can be finicky about the bullet shapes they feed. If you never test, you won't know till the chips are down. A $50 box of .45 is cheap compared to a hospital or funeral bill.
Home defense: Mossberg 12ga, with 00 buckshot is pretty decent. Especially when someone's coming through the door and you want to stop them right fast and in a hurry.
Handguns: I prefer the .45 caliber. Readily available, fun to shoot. As for brands, Glock, Springfield Armory, Bersa... I'd stay away from Hi-Point. I'd avoid them like The Plague. *shudder*
And yes, I second Lochinvar's suggestion that you spend a lot of time at the range. Familiarize yourself with your firearms. Clean them, disassemble them, put them back together. Get to know them inside and out.
Handguns: I prefer the .45 caliber. Readily available, fun to shoot. As for brands, Glock, Springfield Armory, Bersa... I'd stay away from Hi-Point. I'd avoid them like The Plague. *shudder*
And yes, I second Lochinvar's suggestion that you spend a lot of time at the range. Familiarize yourself with your firearms. Clean them, disassemble them, put them back together. Get to know them inside and out.
Let me expand a little on my earlier post.
I've been shooting since I was old enough to hold a gun up, and have shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 different guns.
Each one has their OWN personality! It doesn't matter if they are identical makes and models, no two are exactly alike!
Whatever you buy, you need to get very familiar with!
Plan on spending a substantial amount of time getting to know your gun.... Inside and out.
Plan on putting several hundred rounds down range before you ever carry it, or use it for home self defense.
Learn how to properly clean and care for it.
Buy several different brands and types of ammo to try, as some guns like certain ammo better than others.
Don't buy cheap ammo either!
The cheap stuff is fine for plinking, but for defense purposes buy the best "defensive" ammo you can and practice a good bit with it.
Ammo is just as different from one brand/style to the next as guns are.
I know you're in Commyfornia, and are wanting a semi-auto. But honestly, if you have very little experience, then I would suggest a good revolver chambered in .357 magnum.
With a .357, you have the option of shooting full-house .357 magnums, .38 special +P, or regular old .38 specials.
Revolvers are damn near foolproof as well! No jams, no safety (but are still very safe to carry), and still have fairly quick reloads, especially if you use a speed loader.
Revolvers are extremely reliable and simple to maintain and operate.
I'm not knocking autos, as I often carry them, but they can be tricky animals for the inexperienced.
My personal carry guns are as follows (depending on my dress and mood)
Taurus Model 605 .357 snub-nose (this is the one I carry most of the time)
Taurus PT 1911 full size .45acp (I usually only carry this one in the winter as it is big and heavy)
Springfield XD Sub-Compact 9mm (actually the wife's, but I like to carry it on occasion)
I also have a couple of pocket pistols that I carry sometimes when my attire doesn't allow me to conceal a larger gun, and they are;
Baby Browning .25acp
North American Arms .22mag. Mini-Revolver
For hiking, I usually carry a Taurus Model 44, which is a ported barrel, 4" SS .44 magnum, and has stopped an angry bear for me.
With the exception of the .25 and .22, which only have about 200 rounds a piece put through them, the rest have no less than 750 rounds (the XD) through them, and some have had thousands put through them (the 1911 and .44).
Some guys knock me for liking Taurus, but mine have always been great guns! Taurus also has a lifetime warranty.
That being said, I don't know if I would ever buy one of their "cheap" guns.
I own more handguns than these, by many different brands such as S&W, High Standard and more,but these are my go-to guns.
I've been shooting since I was old enough to hold a gun up, and have shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 different guns.
Each one has their OWN personality! It doesn't matter if they are identical makes and models, no two are exactly alike!
Whatever you buy, you need to get very familiar with!
Plan on spending a substantial amount of time getting to know your gun.... Inside and out.
Plan on putting several hundred rounds down range before you ever carry it, or use it for home self defense.
Learn how to properly clean and care for it.
Buy several different brands and types of ammo to try, as some guns like certain ammo better than others.
Don't buy cheap ammo either!
The cheap stuff is fine for plinking, but for defense purposes buy the best "defensive" ammo you can and practice a good bit with it.
Ammo is just as different from one brand/style to the next as guns are.
I know you're in Commyfornia, and are wanting a semi-auto. But honestly, if you have very little experience, then I would suggest a good revolver chambered in .357 magnum.
With a .357, you have the option of shooting full-house .357 magnums, .38 special +P, or regular old .38 specials.
Revolvers are damn near foolproof as well! No jams, no safety (but are still very safe to carry), and still have fairly quick reloads, especially if you use a speed loader.
Revolvers are extremely reliable and simple to maintain and operate.
I'm not knocking autos, as I often carry them, but they can be tricky animals for the inexperienced.
My personal carry guns are as follows (depending on my dress and mood)
Taurus Model 605 .357 snub-nose (this is the one I carry most of the time)
Taurus PT 1911 full size .45acp (I usually only carry this one in the winter as it is big and heavy)
Springfield XD Sub-Compact 9mm (actually the wife's, but I like to carry it on occasion)
I also have a couple of pocket pistols that I carry sometimes when my attire doesn't allow me to conceal a larger gun, and they are;
Baby Browning .25acp
North American Arms .22mag. Mini-Revolver
For hiking, I usually carry a Taurus Model 44, which is a ported barrel, 4" SS .44 magnum, and has stopped an angry bear for me.
With the exception of the .25 and .22, which only have about 200 rounds a piece put through them, the rest have no less than 750 rounds (the XD) through them, and some have had thousands put through them (the 1911 and .44).
Some guys knock me for liking Taurus, but mine have always been great guns! Taurus also has a lifetime warranty.
That being said, I don't know if I would ever buy one of their "cheap" guns.
I own more handguns than these, by many different brands such as S&W, High Standard and more,but these are my go-to guns.
I don't have any expert advice to give, but this is my primary home defense/carry weapon, a Ruger GP100 357 mag with the 3" barrel. I've been carrying this for many years in an Old World holster. It's a little large for some, but I've gotten used to it. My wife carries a Taurus model 65 revolver.
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