General MacArthur

[mso489]

I'm not a fan of MacArthur. If his dramatic persona aided the war effort, I'm all for it, but it is questionable since the soldiers who bled, starved and died under him, and had the best chance to evaluate him, mostly disliked-to-hated him. One telling biographical item from his youth. When other men went off to West Point and faced the isolation and harsh discipline bravely and alone for month after month, Douglas' mommy set up a fine residence nearby where her darling baby could retreat into the style to which his wealthy upbringing had accustomed him. Let those other riff-raff cadets face the harsh music unrelenting, her baby was fed the best food and had his adoration and ego massage at every opportunity. No wonder he was hard on others but never on himself. Harry Truman, who was an artillery officer in World War I finally knocked his ears down, and I don't give a crap about that "old soldiers never die" palaver. I like Ike, Bradley, Marshall, and the genius of Nimitz at Midway; those guys won the war. Douglas, I am most dubious of his role.

 

[fordm60]

LOL, as I said before to any soldier he is a cowardly piece of crap. To civilians he wonderful. He has been branded a coward by us. He makes soldiers sick. End of story. Happy puffing!!

 

[gloucesterman]

He got a lot of people killed in the Philippines. Navy wanted to by pass and isolate it. MacArthur would have none of of it. History says he was wrong. And again in Korea.

 

[fordm60]

+1,000,000,000,000 gloucesterman! Was wondering if anyone would mention that.

 

[JimInks]

Let's not forget what he did to the WW One bonus soldiers.

 

[davet]

Let's not forget what he did to the WW One bonus soldiers.

I'm not familiar with this, looking it up now :puffpipe:

 

[dcrguns]

My grandfather hated him. Never had a nice word to say about the man. He fought under him in the Philippines. My other grandfather hated Patton and fought under him in Germany. I heard a lot about Patton and why my grandfather in Germany did not like him. My Grandfather from the Pacific would never talk about his time there. They both saw heavy fighting and both carried deep scars for many years.

 

[johnnyreb]

A reproduction of his cap from U.S. Wings (not mine):

 

[erichbaumer]

There was a book published on the five star generals of WWII entitled 15 Stars, and a joke that I've heard is that, because of MacArther, it should have been 10 Stars and a Bastard. Just a bit of humor. Though I do find the historical debate intriguing, WWII being one of my favorite subjects.

 

[warren]

My best friend's father was a marine and stormed ashore a couple of times. He thought MacArthur was stingier with his troops than the Navy was with theirs. I would have to explore but, I'm pretty sure I read that the army reconquered territory with fewer loses than the Navy's campaign. Anyone know the data?
MacArthur wanted to react even more heavily against the protesters than his commanding officers would let him against the "bonus army."
And, yes, he was overly protected as a youngster. I believe we would refer to him as a "mommy's boy."

 

[pappymac]

MacArthur would not survive in the current political environment. He was an arrogant ruthless bastard and did not hesitate to throw men away to achieve his goals. I wonder how the Middle East would be if he was commanding coalition forces. G

It's a given that the death toll would be higher.

 

[warren]

My loyalty was to my AC. I knew the generals and politicians were humbugs. I also had many better ideas of how to win the war. Unfortunately none of the politicians or generals ever solicited my advice. I did offer it often and loudly though.

 

[fnord]

Only a few thoughts to add to those already offered - some I can document and others I can't.
Stanlaurel, the pix of MacArthur smoking his pipe wearing Captain insignia was taken, I believe, during the occupation of Veracruz in 1914. By the time he landed in France in 1918 he was a full bull colonel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_MacArthur
Like Pappymac, I've read that MacArthur grabbed the long stemmed corncob for photo ops. His smoke of choice were those oily, black as midnight cigars made in the Philippines. (There was a tele-evangelist, Gene something or other, who smoked a similar cigar back in the early 80's. He was quite a character and used to reference MacArthur.)
MacArthur threw Gen. James "Skinny" Wainwright under the bus and then backed over him a few times. Wainwright was the general MacArthur gave the defense of the Philippines to after he was recalled to Australia. However, MacArthur received the CMOH in early 1942 (the first and only father and son award winners) but fought off Gen. George Marshall's recommendation to give Wainwright the same honor later that year. Fortunately, Wainwright did receive the CMOH from President Truman in 1945.
http://www.historynet.com/a-dreadful-step-surrender-at-luzon.htm

http://www.homeofheroes.com/brotherhood/generals_2.html
MacArthur did indeed violently break up the Veteran's March/Encampment in Washington, as Jiminks recalled, and he also sat in on the court martial of Gen. Billy Mitchell.
It's really hard to recall a leading military figure in U.S. history who was so polarizing. Our fathers and grandfathers served under him and some of those guys are pretty damned opinionated. Years later he was fired by President Truman during the Korean Police Action for numerous transgressions: foremost being when POTUS tells you to stop at the Yalu River and you decide to press on - well then, Bob's your uncle.
And still, MacArthur's swan song in 1962 at the West Point dining hall always gets me a little emotional:
"The shadows are lengthening for me. The twilight is here. My days of old have vanished, tone and tint. They have gone glimmering through the dreams of things that were. Their memory is one of wondrous beauty, watered by tears, and coaxed and caressed by the smiles of yesterday. I listen vainly, but with thirsty ears, for the witching melody of faint bugles blowing reveille, of far drums beating the long roll. In my dreams I hear again the crash of guns, the rattle of musketry, the strange, mournful mutter of the battlefield. But in the evening of my memory, always I come back to West Point. Always there echoes and re-echoes: Duty, Honor, Country. Today marks my final roll call with you, but I want you to know that when I cross the river my last conscious thoughts will be of The Corps, and The Corps, and The Corps. I bid you farewell."
Lord knows he was flawed, but he truly loved his country.
Fnord

 

[warren]

MacArthur was like any human being, multi-faceted with the usual number of flaws. He was a man of his times, quite possibly the right man at the right time, in the right place, with regards to WWII and early Korean Conflict.

 

[fordm60]

warren what is an "AC"? I have not heard of that one. Col. Moore was called to the rear for the same reason as the coward to make sure they lived. Col. Moore would have none of it as he is a soldier and understands honor. The coward was all to happy to leave, big difference. The entire Philippine invasion was to sop the cowards conscious. There was no tactical reason to invade. Paulus surrendered in direct disobedience to orders from Hitler and knew exactly what he was doing. He could have gotten out of Stalingrad to give a briefing or meet with higher but he stayed. They were his men, he led, and in the end he let down and he surrendered with his men. Anyway it does not really matter in the Airborne world, which is the only one I know about, we talk about battles and Generals etc. In my 8 years I never heard a Enlisted, NCO, or Officer say anything good about the coward. To be honest if your peers think your a coward, what anyone else says really does not matter. So happy puffing to all!
I am curious on the AC designation warren.

 

[perdurabo]

The piss poor shouldn't go to battle, a great reason not to have a draft. You draft the sorry and recruit the Best of the Best. (I know not always the case) The politicians behind these generals were the problem and still are. Imagine a McArthur today, he'd be wearing pink underwear with orders to kiss his subordinate. WashingtonDC was scared shitless of McArthur, to afraid he was going to come back and win the White House. My Father and GrandFather Praised McArthur. They were both Marines. He may have been a coward, I'm not an expert on McArthur. But The man received orders from those above him in cushy seats in Washington. That's was always the word around my grandfathers house, and he despised politicians with unforgiving vigor.

 

[warren]

AC - Aircraft Commander
I think MacArthur's peers endured his presence as he was an aggressive commander and frugal with his resources while having his chosen battle plans executed. Your and my peers usually have little love for those sending them into harm's way. And, our personal opinions of Army and above leaders is of little concern as long as the fighters execute. The "butcher's bill" should have some consideration when weighed against possible gains but, in the long run, as long as the bodies are available use them, as wisely as possible, while winning the war.
I flew into some interesting strips, I thought my AC was nuts and the guys giving the orders to him were being frivolous with the aircraft and my well-being. That said, I followed my orders and did my job.
My understanding is that Paulus was captured in his quarters and was well removed from the surrender of his army by subordinates. I'm presuming his name, as commander of the 6th, was on the paper. He saw the futility of continuing to feed the killing machine, resigned himself to his fate and was captured. Again we are discussing a multi-faceted individual as a one dimensional individual.
As to MacArthur's courage, I wouldn't think it was a consideration when he was selected to command the theater. Results were what counted. As I matured I learned who was dependable and who was not, both as a "loadmaster" and as a copper. Those I couldn't trust my back with I ignored as much as possible. I've not had much time to call names nor an inclination to spend a bunch of time bad mouthing others weaknesses. I did and still do warn some as to the trustworthiness of others should I feel it necessary. But, I've never felt the need to alert others as to bravery or abilities of long dead people. Doesn't seem like that accomplishes anything. I tend to measure people by their accomplishments over their lifetime. I do not measure a person by one trait, courage, brains, agility, or what have you. I want to know what they bring to the table and how they can benefit me. I simply care about flaws only in that context. Dead people are of no use to me. People who cannot improve me I find boring and avoid.
I dropped lots of troopers when a loadmaster. Even saw some who declined to leave a perfectly good aircraft. I considered them wise beyond their years. While I also admired those who were doing what they loved, jumping out of a perfectly good airplane just didn't seem rational to me. That's why there are troopers, medics, cab drivers, teachers, politicians, lawyers, etc. Some of us are/were lucky to do what we love.

 

[fordm60]

warren, I concede most points to you. The thread indicated he was the man, I disagree, and I stated so and why. As you put it the tip of the spear is not endeared with him. Thank you for clarifying what AC is. I always liked the ride lol. The brief though where the Load master tells us if we are going to be sick and do not have a airsick bag to vomit into our K-pot (helmet) always made me laugh. That K-pot and I are going to be very close friends for the foreseeable future and I sure as heck am not going to vomit into it!! Jump refusal is what you mention. In that world that is not good lol. Fury from the Sky!

 

[stanlaurel]

The thread indicated he was the man, I disagree

You attributed something to my use of those words which was not intended. I meant to post some pictures in a very value neutral manner. I enjoyed reading all the opinions that followed.

 

[tbradsim1]

Stan, my apologies if you thought I was miffed or going at you, not my intention, I am a gruff old Cajun and don't have the nice manners I should have. You showed pictures that's all, weren't getting at you and forgot my manners, Sorry.