Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore collapses.

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pappymac

Lifer
Feb 26, 2015
3,388
4,567
At the Lake of the Ozarks, when a boat gets over about thirty feet long they generally have two engines and two propellers.

I was out once in a friend’s 36 foot Chris Craft Constellation and he lost his starboard engine and we still had a good time cruising back to the dock.

Today, there are 100,000 ton container ships like Dali crossing the world’s wide oceans with just one engine and one propeller,,,,at 22 knots!

What would happen to Dali if she was in the middle of the Pacific in a storm and lost her engine?
That they are still building ships this size with only one propulsion engine to a single fixed screw is a testament to greed.

What would happen if she lost her engine in the middle of the Pacific (or any other ocean)? They would probably call the nearest Coast Guard. (I'm not being facetious) The Coast Guard would alert any vessels in the area to possibly respond to the vessel in distress.
 

Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,840
13,977
Humansville Missouri
That they are still building ships this size with only one propulsion engine to a single fixed screw is a testament to greed.

What would happen if she lost her engine in the middle of the Pacific (or any other ocean)? They would probably call the nearest Coast Guard. (I'm not being facetious) The Coast Guard would alert any vessels in the area to possibly respond to the vessel in distress.

When you look up and see a big jet up five miles high, that new jet costs 100 million to 400 million dollars, list price.

Buy a fleet and they give you a discount.:)

IMG_7686.jpeg

Those huge container ships start at 100 million dollars, too.

But the container ships, might carry well over 100 million dollars of cargo per voyage.

A brand new double four lane bridge over the Missouri River plus taking out the old four lane bridge only cost 82 million.

IMG_7116.jpeg
 
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pinem

Might Stick Around
Aug 16, 2015
69
107
Nebraska
Look close. There was something called a dolphin in front of both supports. In 1980 a ship a third the size of the Dali hit the support and the bridge won.

If the Dali had hit the dolphin it would have busted it, but it could have slowed it down, or caused it to veer back in the channel.

Murphy’s law was at work.

Had the engine problems arose five minutes later the Dali would have cleared the Key Bridge.

The tugs had just turned Dali loose.

Five minutes earlier and they’d have towed her back to port.

I'm a civil engineer, and have help design dolpins and piers for vessel impact. Those dolphins appear to be too far away from the pier to be useful. There is a lot of old infrastructure that has been underdesigned. This appears to be one of those cases.
 

jpmcwjr

Moderator
Staff member
May 12, 2015
25,158
28,175
Carmel Valley, CA
From the first page, ashdigger posted a very informative video.
LINK to Ashdigger's posting of illustration.

On seeing it again, I leaned that they had taken quite a bit of way off, and were about 1.5 kts at collision, down from about 8 knots at start of trouble.
 
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Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,840
13,977
Humansville Missouri
Heavy crane and lift ships are on the way to get the remains of the bridge off the Dali, and clear her so the channel can be reopened.


BALTIMORE (AP) — Maryland Gov. Wes Moore warned Thursday of a “very long road ahead” to recover from the loss of Baltimore’s Francis Scott Key Bridge as the Biden administration approved $60 million in immediate federal aid after the deadly collapse.

Meanwhile the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers was moving the largest crane on the Eastern Seaboard to help remove the wreckage of the bridge, Moore said, so work to clear the channel and reopen the key shipping route can begin. The machine, which can lift up to 1,000 tons, was expected to arrived Thursday evening, and U.S. Sen. Chris Van Hollen said a second crane with a 400-ton capacity could arrive Saturday.

Van Hollen said 32 members of the Army Corps of Engineers are surveying the scene of the collapse and 38 Navy contractors are working on the salvage operation.

Xxxx

The US Army Corps of Engineers working with MoDot blew up the Leon Duraps bridge in September.


By the time my wife and I got around to see it all there wasn’t one trace there ever had been a steel truss bridge there.

Rebuilding the Key Bridge will take time.

Reopening the port not so much time.
 
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Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,840
13,977
Humansville Missouri
I'm a civil engineer, and have help design dolpins and piers for vessel impact. Those dolphins appear to be too far away from the pier to be useful. There is a lot of old infrastructure that has been underdesigned. This appears to be one of those cases.

Complicating the problem is that it’s a tidal estuary and whatever you sink has to be fifty to sixty some feet under flowing river water with a tide. Sheeesch!

And there is a big water and natural gas pipeline down there on the bottom somewhere.

The good news (if there is any) is that all the approaches on both sides don’t look any worse for the collapse of the center truss portion.

When it goes back up they’ll rethink how to protect the new supports.
 
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AJL67

Lifer
May 26, 2022
5,255
27,135
Florida - Space Coast
ANNAPOLIS, MARYLAND —
Rebuilding Baltimore's collapsed Francis Scott Key Bridge could take anywhere from 18 months to several years, experts say, while the cost could be at least $400 million — or more than twice that.

This has "government contract" written all over it, let's see first you will have the lawsuits from the environmental groups, several very expensive surveys and white papers, the typical kickbacks and bribes, cost overruns, proper percentage of DEI hirings, etc.,
 
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jpmcwjr

Moderator
Staff member
May 12, 2015
25,158
28,175
Carmel Valley, CA
ANNAPOLIS, MARYLAND —
Rebuilding Baltimore's collapsed Francis Scott Key Bridge could take anywhere from 18 months to several years, experts say, while the cost could be at least $400 million — or more than twice that.

This has "government contract" written all over it, let's see first you will have the lawsuits from the environmental groups, several very expensive surveys and white papers, the typical kickbacks and bribes, cost overruns, proper percentage of DEI hirings, etc.,
Only $400,000,000? It's not a real project until it's several billions!
 
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AJL67

Lifer
May 26, 2022
5,255
27,135
Florida - Space Coast
Only $400,000,000? It's not a real project until it's several billions!
Like everything else the government does, that's the "low bid" that wins, then there are several years of issues and cost overruns. The "big dig" was suppose to take 7 years and cost something like 2.8 billion but ended up taking about 15 years and costing over 8 billion. My favorite story was when they ran into a bunch of sewers and pipes under the city they didn't plan for because the company that did the blueprints forgot to put them in, then charged the government to go back and redo the plans LOL freaking awesome.
 
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Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,840
13,977
Humansville Missouri
The cost of rebuilding the bridge is just minuscule compared with the loss of the 17th largest port in the USA.

Last year the port handled 74 B-Billion dollars of cargo.

The Dali and her cargo alone would build a good sized bridge. And there are a lot more container ships unable to leave port.

Job 1 is to clear the channel.

Then they can put a center span back up, only about a quarter mile of a 1.6 mile bridge.
 
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PaulRVA

Lifer
May 29, 2023
3,488
56,596
“Tobacco Row “Richmond Virginia USA
Thanks mate, fully understand and great article. I know here in Oz it's pilots to open water because cargo ship captains just don't know the waterways, harbours and ports like the pilot does, its a safety mechanism against this sort of thing. It will be very interesting what changes get implemented after the thousands of meetings that will be had about this incident.
I bet they start running tug escorts
Around major hazard areas here on out!
 

ssjones

Moderator
Staff member
May 11, 2011
18,720
12,113
Maryland
postimg.cc

AJL67

Lifer
May 26, 2022
5,255
27,135
Florida - Space Coast
The cost of rebuilding the bridge is just minuscule compared with the loss of the 17th largest port in the USA.

Last year the port handled 74 B-Billion dollars of cargo.

The Dali and her cargo alone would build a good sized bridge. And there are a lot more container ships unable to leave port.

Job 1 is to clear the channel.

Then they can put a center span back up, only about a quarter mile of a 1.6 mile bridge.
I don't think that is what they have in mind, if they are going to replace it they will most likely plan to replace the entire bridge with something new. More people get their pockets lined that way, not the blue collar people that rely on the port to feed their families of course but how often do people like that really get figured into government projects.
 

craig61a

Lifer
Apr 29, 2017
5,961
49,945
Minnesota USA
I read a few days ago that the electrical problems stemmed from refrigeration/freezer containers tripping the switchgear, and that it had been happening for 48 hours prior to the boats departure.

Of course we won’t really know for months or years what really happened.
 
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Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,840
13,977
Humansville Missouri
The most relevant recent comparison is the August 1 2007 collapse of the I-35 Mississippi River bridge in Minnesota.

It also spanned about a quarter mile, but that bridge carried about five times the daily traffic the Key bridge did.

It’s easier to span a river than a tidal estuary and the Key bridge must be higher (unless it swivels or lifts).

But contracts were awarded for replacement within two months and the replacement opened within a year after start.


The USA interstate system has over 200 named, major bridges.

A lucky break in Baltimore is that bridge is part of a beltway and not an artery. There are two other major bridges across the bay.

But although it’s just the 17th largest port, the economic loss of the shipping channel would replace a major bridge every few days.

Xxxxx

Last year, the private and public terminals within the Baltimore port handled 847,158 cars and light trucks. That's more than any other port inside the United States. "It's a large port with a lot of flow through it, so it’s going to have an impact," John Lawler, Ford CFO, said Tuesday on Bloomberg TV. "We'll work on the workarounds. We'll have to divert parts to other ports along the East Coast or elsewhere in the country."


Xxxxx

I had no idea America shipped that many cars to Europe.
 
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gubbyduffer

Can't Leave
May 25, 2021
478
1,564
Peebles, Scottish Borders
The most relevant recent comparison is the August 1 2007 collapse of the I-35 Mississippi River bridge in Minnesota.

It also spanned about a quarter mile, but that bridge carried about five times the daily traffic the Key bridge did.

It’s easier to span a river than a tidal estuary and the Key bridge must be higher (unless it swivels or lifts).

But contracts were awarded for replacement within two months and the replacement opened within a year after start.


The USA interstate system has over 200 named, major bridges.

A lucky break in Baltimore is that bridge is part of a beltway and not an artery. There are two other major bridges across the bay.

But although it’s just the 17th largest port, the economic loss of the shipping channel would replace a major bridge every few days.

Xxxxx

Last year, the private and public terminals within the Baltimore port handled 847,158 cars and light trucks. That's more than any other port inside the United States. "It's a large port with a lot of flow through it, so it’s going to have an impact," John Lawler, Ford CFO, said Tuesday on Bloomberg TV. "We'll work on the workarounds. We'll have to divert parts to other ports along the East Coast or elsewhere in the country."


Xxxxx

I had no idea America shipped that many cars to Europe.
I don't think Europe is mentioned in the article. I read another AP news article that said that the 847,158 car movements made it the busiest port in the USA handling cars, however 70% of that number are imports.
 
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Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,840
13,977
Humansville Missouri
I don't think Europe is mentioned in the article. I read another AP news article that said that the 847,158 car movements made it the busiest port in the USA handling cars, however 70% of that number are imports.

Baltimore will ship mostly to Europe and the Middle East and West Coast ports mostly to Asia.

The USA is the second largest exporter in the world, after China. 1/10 of our economy is exports. Three T-Trillion a year. I didn’t know that. A bridge falls down and the entire world knows it within minutes.
America has more exports than the entire economies of France or the United Kingdom and we have to learn that when a seaport is closed.

Baltimore probably does import more cars than it exports but every one imported is sold through a dealership and the car spends it’s life here.

But i had no idea, whatsoever, America is in the middle of an export boom.

WASHINGTON, Feb 7 (Reuters) - The U.S. trade deficit widened slightly in December, but contracted by the most in 14 years in 2023 as imports declined and exports jumped to a record high.
The report from the Commerce Department on Wednesday also showed the United States' rising status as a major oil producer, with the inflation-adjusted value of petroleum exports surging 15.9% to a record high in December. The nation is now a net oil exporter and has reduced its dependence of foreign oil, helping to shrink the current account deficit.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-trade-deficit-widens-slightly-december-2024-02-07/#:~:text=The%20trade%20gap%20narrowed%2018.7,economy's%202.5%25%20growth%20last%20year.

I’ve lived through the first oil crisis in 1973 and now, America exports oil again.

I never imagined I’d live to see that.

Next week there will be seven huge crane ships in Baltimore and they’ll open that channel back up, the first thing.

There is a reason America puts the US Army Corps of Engineers in charge of these matters.

The environmentalists and other such do gooders will have to take a ticket and wait until this mess is cleaned up by the Army.:)

(God and the soldier, all men adore, in time of danger, and not before)
 
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