Found a Dunhill U.S. Patent /20

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georged

Lifer
Mar 7, 2013
6,101
16,736
That's good information and observations, George. Would you mind posting a few photos of the "black dots"? I'd like to see them, and I think it'd be very instructive for others to see.

I was referring to the making-black mechanism being a "real thing".

I'd always assumed that Dunhill's QA check following the drill & fill dot procedure was a look down the airway to see if they'd gone too deep, or sliding a flexy rod if the stem was bent.

Apparently not, at least sometimes.

The following pics are from a tenon replacement project where the hole to accept the new Delrin tenon came within a millimeter of a rod-across-the-airway, exposing it clearly.

I'd run into "airway blocking dots" before, many which had become discolored, but couldn't take photos to prove it. (That would have taken some sort of micro-snake camera lens with a light on the end of it).

In this case, though, it was simply happenstance. The pipe's owner had thought the pipe's draw was a bit stiff, but since he could get a cleaner past the "post" with a bit of twisting and effort, thought no more about it. The deep "new tenon holding hole" shined the light of day on the situation, though.

Expecting nothing, I didn't even see it at first. I just kept digging at a tight ball of black cleaner fuzz with an assortment of things, wondering why it wouldn't come out, then finally managed using the end of a drill bit. The dig/scrape of the bit exposed some white and further cleaning with alcohol and a bristle brush told the tale.

Had I not chewed half the rod away digging at the sticky-clingy fuzzball, it would have been a dead-straight vertical pillar across the airway instead of a snaggly-looking stub, but the story told was clear.

The moral? Never trust a factory worker with a drill press on Fridays after lunch.


P8276169.JPGP8276171.JPG
 
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beefeater33

Lifer
Apr 14, 2014
4,251
6,762
Central Ohio
I was referring to the making-black mechanism being a "real thing".

I'd always assumed that Dunhill's QA check following the drill & fill dot procedure was a look down the airway to see if they'd gone too deep, or sliding a flexy rod if the stem was bent.

Apparently not, at least sometimes.

The following pics are from a tenon replacement project where the hole to accept the new Delrin tenon came within a millimeter of a dot-in-the-airway, exposing it clearly.

I'd run into "airway blocking dots" before, many which had become discolored, but couldn't take photos to prove it. (That would have taken some sort of micro-snake camera lens with a light on the end of it).

In this case, though, it was simply happenstance. The pipe's owner had thought the pipe's draw was a bit stiff, but since he could get a cleaner past the "post" with a bit of twisting and effort, thought no more about it. The deep "new tenon holding hole" shined the light of day on the situation, though.

Expecting nothing, I didn't even see it at first. I just kept digging at a tight ball of black cleaner fuzz with an assortment of things, wondering why it wouldn't come out, then finally managed using the end of a drill bit. The dig/scrape of the bit exposed some white and further cleaning with alcohol and a bristle brush told the tale.

Had I not chewed half the rod away digging at the sticky-clingy fuzzball, it would have been a dead-straight vertical pillar across the airway instead of a snaggly-looking stub, but the story told was clear.

The moral? Never trust a factory worker with a drill press on Fridays after lunch.


View attachment 117822View attachment 117823
'70's era?
 

beefeater33

Lifer
Apr 14, 2014
4,251
6,762
Central Ohio
To keep this thread on topic-
I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that sandblast on that old pipe........
I have a 1923 Shell, that's an absolute trainwreck...... but it's a survivor.
It's got a bit of wire around the stem as a fix......... but the blast is incredible......
I'll post some pics in the mornin'
 
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georged

Lifer
Mar 7, 2013
6,101
16,736
Gotcha........
My interest in Dunhill pipes wanes after about 1964-ish............

Indeed. Me too. And justified 95% of the time. But there are exceptions.

Would you believe this perfectly cut 120 was made in 1975? (i.e. the worst year of the worst period in Dunhill's history)

Stuff like this keeps the collecting game fun.

It also allows for some bargains now and then.

P1050351.JPGP1050355.JPGP1050359.JPGP1050360.JPG
 

beefeater33

Lifer
Apr 14, 2014
4,251
6,762
Central Ohio
Indeed. Me too. And justified 95% of the time. But there are exceptions.

Would you believe this perfectly cut 120 was made in 1975? (i.e. the worst year of the worst period in Dunhill's history)

Stuff like this keeps the collecting game fun.

It also allows for some bargains now and then.

View attachment 117827View attachment 117828View attachment 117829View attachment 117830
That's an amazing piece! I Guess, even the blind nut finds a squirrel sometimes........
I've grown away from smooth pipes, but the 'eyes and lines on that one are quite nice!.......
 
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DotAndBang’sPipes

Starting to Get Obsessed
Jun 27, 2016
228
551
43
Orlando, FL
To keep this thread on topic-
I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that sandblast on that old pipe........
I have a 1923 Shell, that's an absolute trainwreck...... but it's a survivor.
It's got a bit of wire around the stem as a fix......... but the blast is incredible......
I'll post some pics in the mornin'
I know! The blast! Do you think the bowl crack will give me much trouble? Is this pipe doomed or will some glue and briar dust work? Everything around the crack is as hard as rock. No movement whatsoever.
 

DotAndBang’sPipes

Starting to Get Obsessed
Jun 27, 2016
228
551
43
Orlando, FL
Not quite.

The "from years of smoking" part is irrelevant UNLESS the cellulose rod that comprises the dot extends into the airway (over-drilling at the time of manufacture). When it does, it's like a slow motion sponge that wicks Smoking Crud up the rod, depositing the solids and eventually turning the dot the same color AS the Crud.

In the meantime, it'll go from bone colored to amber, to tan, to latigo, to walnut. Sometimes with a bit of red/cherry thown in.

I've not only seen it many times but have photos of such cases.



That's simply the result of two things converging: 1) the dot backing out of the hole (which isn't terribly uncommon... I own several and have seen many; and 2) one of the pipe's former owners used a buffer to shine / polish the pipe frequently. Result? Instant round-over into a lovely lens-like hemisphere.

--------------

Regarding material other than white dot rod being found at the white dot position on a Dunhill stem, by far the most likely explanation is when a legit dot backed out completely and was lost, the owner jammed something entertaining/frivolous into the hole. A small synthetic pearl, a circular faux gemstone, etc.

No one has ever unearthed any documentation to support being able to order a real diamond or similar as a dot from Dunhill at any time, anyway.

(Which, in my mind, always begged the question of why anyone who could afford such an indulgence do the deed to a pipe that is otherwise completely average... If the pipe was a spectacular DR H giant, or something, I might lean toward the "VIP special order through VIP special connections" theory. But for a pedestrian group 4 lovat, not so much.)
Here are some close upsE3224A89-D799-4164-B595-995F4567C9F2.jpeg of the stem and dot… I see brown and red… FE1B05C3-04D7-4037-A915-AFAA2E8C81B1.jpeg3E969664-4847-40DE-98DD-529A14A90ED0.jpeg
 
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mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,211
60,638
I'm not a Dunhill owner, but that one is a piece of history, has been through the wars, literally. Those reamers are a peril. I guess that's the reason I avoid cake. I'd be hesitant to smoke it, but I'm sure it's smokable, especially with repairs.
 

guylesss

Can't Leave
May 13, 2020
323
1,158
Brooklyn, NY
Apologies for being so very late to weigh in at this particular party, but this has been a distracting holiday week. First off--from all I can ascertain Dunhill has not had a professional archivist of any kind for several years. Still less someone who might speak authoritatively from research or personal knowledge of early, made to order one-offs.

As for original black dot pipes, as opposed to pipes with blackened white dots, my own opinion is they're extremely unlikely. If they existed, the most obvious occasion for them to have been used would have been on ivory stems (listed in early About Smoke catalogues) or white stems made in small batches about twenty years ago from "Erinoid" (aka casein). Instead, these pipes have a delicate black circle that visually reads as if it were a white dot.

One could also imagine (especially before the second world war), a special order, one-of-a-kind pipe being made for a favored client. But again, insofar as I know, none of the lavishly illustrated books published in cooperation with Dunhill and drawn from their archives which make much of this sort of thing has ever shown a pipe with any but a white dot, no matter how lavishly it was adorned. See eg the "ladies pipe" with a diamond band below.

But at least to me the most compelling argument against black dots is Dunhill's years of acrimonious litigation protecting the White Dot as Dunhill's trademark. Here--to simplify a long and complicated story (at least as I understand it)--Dunhill dd their best, on a few occasions, to argue a dot of any color infringed their trademark--and lost resoundingly. Which is to say in addition to all else, there were legal reasons for the dot to be white.

As for why anyone (excepting perhaps a minimalist abstract painter of the 1960s) would want to drill a hole in a black stem to insert a black dot. . . ?

Finally, to the OP, great blast!
Dunhill ladies pipe w diamond band.jpgenglish-estate-pipe-dunhill-320-opera_stem dot.jpg
 

DotAndBang’sPipes

Starting to Get Obsessed
Jun 27, 2016
228
551
43
Orlando, FL
D9C5EB20-978E-4505-8218-63A4A9EA04B0.jpeg
Here’s a look at my progress thus far. One day I’d really like to redo the whole rim… but for now it’s smokable, the crack is filled, and the stem is back from the brink. I replaced the former dot with a tiny piece of plastic and acrylic paint. Looking forward to building a nice protective cake! PS, I think the number after England might actually be a 2 instead of a 7. So, either a 1922 or 1927 find. Love the History of it and thanks for all your input.