Expensive Pipes--To Each His Own

[cosmicfolklore]

I hear the $500 briar isn’t that great.

You kiddin' me, it's perfect!! But, my $750 briar is even more perfect.

 

[Simmerdown☕️]

BTW…none of this can be blamed on @BROBS…see what I did there. ?️

 

[smokeymo]

I’ve just never been for too much open forum disagreement. I find myself often looking like an asshole when trying to prove a point. Also, because I rarely care that much to get in arguments with folks as it serves little purpose other than to make myself feel validated & that’s VANITY son. ? ?️

I don't disagree with you. However, I do think that civil disagreement can be the foundation of a progressive conversation. How boring would it be if everyone agreed about everything? I've kind of found that to be the case on this forum. There are a few posters that post a lot that essentially repeat each other. Like a giant echo chamber.

 

[Simmerdown☕️]

I don't disagree with you. However, I do think that civil disagreement can be the foundation of a progressive conversation. How boring would it be if everyone agreed about everything? I've kind of found that to be the case on this forum. There are a few posters that post a lot that essentially repeat each other. Like a giant echo chamber.

As my grandfather said to me once…Have at it hoss. ?️

 

[telescopes]

You'll never convince me that animation is a craft. There is art and there is craft. Craft creates something with functional purpose. A crafted item can have artistic attributes (a motorcycle, a desk, a pipe) but a work of art has no functional use. And most certainly that applies in this pipe making case. Pipe making is far closer to engineering than it is to doodling or painting.

Edit: I don't mean to demean or diminish the importance of art. I have many, many artistic pieces around my house, commissioned by my favorite artists. My mother is an artist. It is something I don't have a particular knack for, and I admire. Just detailing differences here.

So, in this (clearly bias) "outsider's opinion":
- person detailing points about how the material used in crafting is the utmost importance. And pointing out how the person saying that all briar is the same, must not know about crafting. = attacking.
- person calling names, not addressing any points made in the conversation, dismissing common knowledge as myths, = defending.

The word for this is delusion.

Not really wanting to jump in here, but there is a flaw in your argument when your argument depends on the definition you provide to what is art and what is craft. Animators put out hundreds, if not thousands, of films every year. Some of these are truly lacking artistry, and yet, there is a level of craftsmanship that comes through. The two terms are not mutually independent of each other. I know of people who can create wonderful pipes that exhibit marvelous craftsmanship and yet... lack artistry. Others are exhibit wonderful artistry and lack craftsmanship. I, personally, fall into that last category. I am an amazing artist who lacks any type of craftsmanship. What does that make me? Someone whom you should never sell a pipe and say it is worth smoking. It'll look great. It will make a statement. And it will smoke like shit.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

The crux of the argument is that you propose that briar is key to why a $1200 pipe is worth more than a $200 pipe. You also threw out there that WE, for some reason, think all briar is the same. I think it was you who missed the point. I don't think anyone who smokes pipes and has had a range of pipes thinks all briar is the same. We discuss this all the time.
I think the problem is the assumption that it is the cost of the briar is what makes some pipes more expensive.
We've had Ken Barnes quoted how there are ranges of briar, but... no $500 chunks were mentioned.
You then put down Sable, Ken Barnes, ART, and apparently everyone because we are all idiots that think all briar is the same. Ha ha.

So, where is this briar that cost so much, that some pipes are 2.5X's higher than the rest, some even as high as 10Xs higher, to make up for the offset price?

I think the real problem here is that you aren't listening to anyone. You lash out about how we are all wrong about it all, when a lot of what were are saying is the same, but we are all idiots.

The fate of the free world is NOT at stake here. This debate is stupid. The only thing keeping us here is the tragic humor of watching you burn. As Georged says, your "pomposity" keeps us going.

 

[telescopes]

Before this thread is locked down: I offer my two cents which are worth even less than that.

Art: It has intrinsic and extrinsic value. Man is not simply a mere animal dependent on substance in order to reproduce. Humanity is so much more and art is not a luxury, ... it is a necessity - the historical record of humanity demonstrates this to be true.

Craftsmanship: It too has value. It has been recognized as an important component of what we value as demonstrated by the historical record of humanity.

The two terms are inclusive of each other.

Briar: There is a point of diminishing return. The most perfect briar use in a pipe can not and does not contribute an equal value in terms of smoking the pipe in a blind smoking experiment. My 1930 Kaywoodie Thorn does smoke as well as any pipe in my collection and it is more beautiful in grain than any pipe in my collection - one that includes pipes at many, many price points. But it is a Kaywoodie, albeit from a time when Kaywoodie was more than a Dunhill.

So there it is....

 

[smokeymo]

Not really wanting to jump in here, but there is a flaw in your argument when your argument depends on the definition you provide to what is art and what is craft. Animators put out hundreds, if not thousands, of films every year. Some of these are truly lacking artistry, and yet, there is a level of craftsmanship that comes through. The two terms are not mutually independent of each other. I know of people who can create wonderful pipes that exhibit marvelous craftsmanship and yet... lack artistry. Others are exhibit wonderful artistry and lack craftsmanship. I, personally, fall into that last category. I am an amazing artist who lacks any type of craftsmanship. What does that make me? Someone whom you should never sell a pipe and say it is worth smoking. It'll look great. It will make a statement. And it will smoke like shit.

Animation is not craftsmanship. It is artistry. "there is a level of craftsmanship that comes through" how tf does craftmanship come through in a cartoon? lol

Also, art is subjective. Something that looks or sounds great to you can be awful to someone else. And vice versa. Craftmasnship: it works well, or it doesn't. Your pipe draws well, easy to clean, stays cool, lasts for hundreds of smokes = good craftsmanship.

 

[smokeymo]

The crux of the argument is that you propose that briar is key to why a $1200 pipe is worth more than a $200 pipe. You also threw out there that WE, for some reason, think all briar is the same. I think it was you who missed the point. I don't think anyone who smokes pipes and has had a range of pipes thinks all briar is the same. We discuss this all the time.
I think the problem is the assumption that it is the cost of the briar is what makes some pipes more expensive.
We've had Ken Barnes quoted how there are ranges of briar, but... no $500 chunks were mentioned.
You then put down Sable, Ken Barnes, ART, and apparently everyone because we are all idiots that think all briar is the same. Ha ha.

So, where is this briar that cost so much, that some pipes are 2.5X's higher than the rest, some even as high as 10Xs higher, to make up for the offset price?

I think the real problem here is that you aren't listening to anyone. You lash out about how we are all wrong about it all, when a lot of what were are saying is the same, but we are all idiots.

The fate of the free world is NOT at stake here. This debate is stupid. The only thing keeping us here is the tragic humor of watching you burn. As Georged says, your "pomposity" keeps us going.

And you clearly missed my point. Nowhere did I say that it is the key to an expensive pipe. I said it is a large reason for pricing. As is the craftsmanship and style...

If you READ you will see that we are talking about a PERFECT piece of briar being that expensive. FFS go read man.

I really can't be bothered explaining this to you again. I wouldn't expect someone who waters their pipes to understand what I'm talking about anyway.

 

[brian64]

I am an amazing artist who lacks any type of craftsmanship. What does that make me?

A starving artist?

 

[JKoD]

Why put art in my house? Because it looks nice. Because it increases in value. The art has no functionality in and of itself. It does not do anything. It sits there and has no use other than to sit there. The fact that you are now arguing obscure definitions of words is kind of sad.

There are plenty of pipe smokers that can tell the difference between good briar and average briar. To claim this as untrue is a discredit to those who have been doing this for decades.

Your reading comprehension is, again, proving very poor. You are making an inference that something (marketing psychology) is beyond my comprehension. By your definition you are attacking me. Right? Because I inferred that craftsmanship was beyond someone else and that was deemed attacking...

Marketing obviously has functionality and I brought that up in my first post. Pipe makers who tell you the briar isn't all that important is... wait for it.... marketing. because they are selling something. You didn't address how, in your own post, it says that there are different levels of briar. If all briar is the same (or similar enough that the "majority of pipe smokers" can't tell the difference), why would that be the case? I'm sure the top artisans in the world use the same exact briar and the same exact curing processes as Peterson and Savinelli. Right??

Not really. So, if the art is just sitting there it has no purpose? I don’t think there is an argument on the definition of functionality outside of your application of it having to be a moving part of something. Roads just sit there. Your house just sits there… they have no functionality?

Is plenty of pipe smokers the majority of pipe smokers? ? comprehension ?‍ At what point did I say none could tell a difference?

I didn’t see where you answered the bias question.

 

[smokeymo]

Not really. So, if the art is just sitting there it has no purpose? I don’t think there is an argument on the definition of functionality outside of your application of it having to be a moving part of something. Roads just sit there. Your house just sits there… they have no functionality?

Is plenty of pipe smokers the majority of pipe smokers? ? comprehension ?‍ At what point did I say none could tell a difference?

I didn’t see where you answered the bias question.

You drive on roads. They serve a function. Do you drive on art? Certainly some crafts can be art, you could make a very fancy beautiful road made of gold. But not all art is a craft. Drawing doodles is not crafting.

And you haven't answered my questions. Any of them really. Guess that makes us even.

 

[Grangerous]

 

[JKoD]

I don't disagree with you. However, I do think that civil disagreement can be the foundation of a progressive conversation. How boring would it be if everyone agreed about everything? I've kind of found that to be the case on this forum. There are a few posters that post a lot that essentially repeat each other. Like a giant echo chamber.

Like a giant echo chamber?

 

[Simmerdown☕️]

View attachment 119856

That was right on time burleyboy. ??️

 

[HitchensDog]

"Luke, give yourself to the dark side. Corncob pipes are the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you."

 

[cosmicfolklore]

You drive on roads. They serve a function. Do you drive on art? Certainly some crafts can be art, you could make a very fancy beautiful road made of gold. But not all art is a craft. Drawing doodles is not crafting.

And you haven't answered my questions. Any of them really. Guess that makes us even.

Artists don’t understand art. Briar cutters don’t understand briar. No one here understands expensive pipes. Ha ha! And, obviously you have no idea what craft is. Phhhht. Over and out!

 

[JKoD]

You drive on roads. They serve a function. Do you drive on art? Certainly some crafts can be art, you could make a very fancy beautiful road made of gold. But not all art is a craft. Drawing doodles is not crafting.

And you haven't answered my questions. Any of them really. Guess that makes us even.

? so “driving” on a road gives it functionality. And hanging art to “look” at and “decorate” your house isn’t functional?

Please ? Stop ?

Can’t wait!

 

[Grangerous]

Artists don’t understand art. Briar cutters don’t understand briar. No one here understands expensive pipes. Ha ha! And, obviously you have no idea what craft is. Phhhht. Over and out!

 

[warren]

A battel of the wits and some combatants didn't come properly armed.