Electric vs. ICE cars

[lraisch]

I took part in some previous conversations here about the relative merits of gas vs electric cars and wanted to follow up with some more information.

I do not own an electric car (and my 58mpg hybrid keeps me from range anxiety) but I think a lot of misinformation is out there that should be addressed. By that, I mean the kind of information that makes me wonder if some oil company is behind it.

When I bring up studies by EPA, I'm told that you can't trust anything the government reports.

So here from Motor Trend, is an article on the relative energy efficiency of gas vs electric vehicles. The energy source for the electrical generating system is also taken into account.

Electric Vehicles Are Way, Way More Energy-Efficient Than Internal Combustion Vehicles

Only a relatively small fraction of gas actually, you know, moves your car around. The rest is wasted.

www.motortrend.com

 

[Chasing Embers]

I'll never be able to justify the cost of buying one, but have you ever seen an EV battery explode?

 

[jpberg]

I took part in some previous conversations here about the relative merits of gas vs electric cars and wanted to follow up with some more information.

I do not own an electric car (and my 58mpg hybrid keeps me from range anxiety) but I think a lot of misinformation is out there that should be addressed. By that, I mean the kind of information that makes me wonder if some oil company is behind it.

When I bring up studies by EPA, I'm told that you can't trust anything the government reports.

So here from Motor Trend, is an article on the relative energy efficiency of gas vs electric vehicles. The energy source for the electrical generating system is also taken into account.

Electric Vehicles Are Way, Way More Energy-Efficient Than Internal Combustion Vehicles

Only a relatively small fraction of gas actually, you know, moves your car around. The rest is wasted.

www.motortrend.com

Are you a shill for the greenies?
Do you think EVs are more environmentally friendly?

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I don't think there's any question EVs are more energy efficient. It's like to get one but I'm going to wait until they have a couple more years of experience before I dive in. Theoretically, they should be more reliable as well.

 

[lraisch]

I'll never be able to justify the cost of buying one, but have you ever seen an EV battery explode?

View attachment 162844

No, but I have seen car fires (and I had a phone battery swell so much it was probably close to exploding)! I've also seen lead acid batteries explode. I can't afford an electric car either!

 

[Richmond B. Funkenhouser]

It takes a lot of diesel fuel to harvest the material for the batteries, and to move the parts around. Not to mention all the coal and gas it take to charge the thing.

Since I have no car payment.. My car will still be cheaper to drive than the new electric even if gas is 20 bucks a gallon. the payment on a car like that is going to be about $1000 a month.

If Half the population plugged in an electric car at once it would blow something loose.

They just aren't real. It's a hoax.

 

[karam]

Electric cars are the reason I am looking to get a motorcycle license. I like driving and controlling the vehicle instead of being controlled by it. I bought a brand new car in 2020 and against the dealer’s “recommendation” I ordered a manual shift. Years ago I did an advanced driving training class so I’m confident of my driving skills. Rev matching, double clutching etc is how I drive as a habit. Handbreak turns and forced oversteer on a front wheel drive (or ass turn as we call it in Greece) are all stupidities I did as a youngster, not sure I could pull them off nowadays though, or whether I’d even want to try! All these petrolhead skills and points of endless discussions with other petrolheads will be gone in 10-15 years or more, sadly.

Friend bought a Tesla, took me for a drive, I have to admit I was blown away by the acceleration it has, but other than that the whole thing makes me sad, I am convinced in 10-15 years there will be no more proper cars even made.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

There is barely enough Lithium on Earth to replace all of the ICE vehicles we use today just once, and Lithium Batteries cannot be recycled.
The idea of the global economy relying on "Lithium Electric" cars for even as short a time as 100 years is an impossibility.
Combustible fuel can be created from many sources, ultimately there is no need to dig it up, and carbon is naturally reclaimed by photosynthesis, all we need to restore the balance of carbon consumption is match it with sufficient photosynthesis.
Eventually we'll turn trees and other biomass straight into Gasoline and skip the whole "fossil fuel" part.
Given that Lithium batteries are a dead end technology, the Internal Combustion Engine will remain the standard mode of transportation for the rest of human existence (barring development of a battery formula significantly better than Lithium).
Electric cars have their place in certain circumstances, and there is a desperate need for a revolution of public transportation, but the bulk of human activity is and always will be best accomplished with internal combustion engines.

 

[AJL67]

C

No, but I have seen car fires (and I had a phone battery swell so much it was probably close to exploding)! I've also seen lead acid batteries explode. I can't afford an electric car either!

ReguLar car fires can be put out

 

[karam]

Given that Lithium batteries are a dead end technology, the Internal Combustion Engine will remain the standard mode of transportation for the rest of human existence (barring development of a battery formula significantly better than Lithium).

Don't know battery technology, but where there's need/incentive there's research, and where there's research there will be breakthroughs. My kids don't know a world without internet and mobile phones, yet most of us here do.

I am convinced the first world will go electric in the next 10-15 years, and soon after the rest of the world will follow by the simple fact support will drop off for ICE cars, and no more will be made. A great book I once read, the title of which eludes me right now, said that a technology reaches its absolute peak right before it's about to die. Was using the example of carriage technology right before cars were developed. Not a lot of coachbuilders around nowadays. I feel that we've likely sucked all there is to suck out of ICEs, and because I always had an interest in engineering I have looked into a lot of exotic designs and configurations, yet it seems the classic four stroke ICE and diesel just can't be beat for large-scale application. Variable transmission/injection timing, combination of turbo with superchargers, hybrids...all that stuff is great but in essence they are 100+ year technologies just made incrementally better. Talking about transmissions, as I said above I got a manual because I love driving, yet can appreciate the efficiencies gained from having no gearbox (like Teslas don't).

Diesel is in my opinion the one exception, I am actually pretty convinced diesel will last far longer, but will be restricted to professional vehicles.

No idea what's the deal with gas/hydrogen vehicles, again my gut feeling is that they should have a better future than electric, but electric are hyped right now. Every tenth car on Swiss roads is a Tesla.

Not convinced electric are actually good for the environment at all, but the green cult has all the characteristics of any other cult (political, religious - aren't they the same thing?): it is loud, self-righteous, and impervious to a civilized and intelligent discussion.

 

[scloyd]

This is a little off topic. My neighbor (70+ yo woman) uses an electric lawnmower. Not one with a battery, she uses an extension cord, possibly 100 feet of cord. It looks like a real pain in the ass, constantly fooling around with the cord, so she doesn't run over it.

 

[AJL67]

I just love the save the planet crowd that has no idea what lithium mining does to areas, the “slave labor” that mines it, the fact that it’s still fossil fuel powering them in the end, the fact that lithium batteries might as well be nuclear waste at their EOL, yet they are still pushed by the establishment that seem to care about none of these things. I have a friend that got a Tesla, she was driving to Tampa from south Florida and had to stop at a charging station and hang out for a good while waiting for the car to charge, she was definitely frustrated lol

 

[Brendan]

Alternative fuels should be the direction.

 

[Alejo R.]

I'll never be able to justify the cost of buying one, but have you ever seen an EV battery explode?

View attachment 162844

Don't gas cars que fire and explode too?

 

[AJL67]

Don't gas cars que fire and explode too?

Yes but you can put those fires out, they don’t keep reigniting.

 

[Alejo R.]

Cars that use fossil fuels (diesel, gasoline or compressed natural gas) have been with us for more than 100 years and are very close to reaching their evolutionary peak. The problem is that in these cars the entire energy chain is dirty, from the extraction of oil to the operation of the car itself. Electric cars, on the other hand, have a lot to improve but at least the end of the chain is already clean (car running does not pollute) and there is some chance that the whole chain can become a clean chain. This is not a political issue, or the replacement of one technology by another, or forcing people to abandon one type of technology. It is that for certain types of vehicle use it will be more convenient and cleaner to use electric cars.

 

[AJL67]

Cars that use fossil fuels (diesel, gasoline or compressed natural gas) have been with us for more than 100 years and are very close to reaching their evolutionary peak. The problem is that in these cars the entire energy chain is dirty, from the extraction of oil to the operation of the car itself. Electric cars, on the other hand, have a lot to improve but at least the end of the chain is already clean (car running does not pollute) and there is some chance that the whole chain can become a clean chain. This is not a political issue, or the replacement of one technology by another, or forcing people to abandon one type of technology. It is that for certain types of vehicle use it will be more convenient and cleaner to use electric cars.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[telescopes]

When seat belts were added to cars, my father was livid. When dash boards went from metal to vinyl, he laminated the drop in quality of materials. When airbags were added as well as electric windows etc he adamantly opposed these changes. Today, his beliefs about car change comes across like an idiot.

 

[sablebrush52]

When I bring up studies by EPA, I'm told that you can't trust anything the government reports.

First sign you're dealing with a brainwashed drone. Lots of information from everywhere is inaccurate, or spun. Government hasn't got a lock or even a majority stake on bamboozlement. Most of the info is pretty much the real deal, and can be verified independently. Now back to our story...

 

[sablebrush52]

When seat belts were added to cars, my father was livid. When dash boards went from metal to vinyl, he laminated the drop in quality of materials. When airbags were added as well as electric windows etc he adamantly opposed these changes. Today, his beliefs about car change comes across like an idiot.

My father was an aerospace engineer. His take on changes, when they were substantive and passed his highly critical engineer's calculations, was welcoming.