Decades-Old Tobacco: Magical Elixir, or Zombie Dust?

[lawdawg]

I’m guessing you’re in your 40’s as most people are on here. You will be in your 60’s when you have to worry with your stash turning to shit after you open it. You will be slowing down, with more time on your hands as you reach retirement. Don’t worry so much. But, know that there is risk. Anything with a pay out comes with risk.
I assume that in 20 years, tobacco won’t even be grown commercially any more. And, I’ll be in my 70’s close to 80 if I even live that long. So I don’t give a shit. I just hope my kids don’t stash me in somewhere where I can’t even smoke. That’s more of a worry to me than shitdust. I don’t know anyone over 70 NOT in a living facility.

20 years, so much can happen. Stuff we felt was important at 30 or 40 is no longer even a thought.

I don’t have an optimism about pipes lasting into the 2040’s. Just cellar away, so that it CAN be there of you want to smoke. When and if shitdust becomes a worry, deal with it latter. There’s nothing you can do now. Except if you don’t set any back, your double screwed of tobacco goes the way of the dodo.

I'm in my mid-30's, rapidly moving past the "mid" part. So far, I have been gradually cellaring without making it a big concern, and I'll probably just keep doing exactly that.

I also have contrary view on future availability. I don't think smoking is going anywhere. Look at all the college aged kids who are vaping now. Nicotine and tobacco are still popular, despite every effort to restrict them. I don't know how long it will take, but I think the effort to ban them all completely or regulate them out of existence will lose steam. There was a certain momentum generated in the 80's and 90's because of the horrendous misconduct of the tobacco industry in previous decades in concealing the risks of smoking, but as smoking is becoming more of a niche thing, it's less of a public health issue. Now I do expect prices and taxes to go way up, but that's another thing.

Note that Simon said "If not jarred up ....." I'm not a chemist but will make the assumption the reintroduction of oxygen to the leaf causes it to break down. Not unreasonable to think that. But what's the big deal with jarring an old tin that's been opened?

Given that cellaring deep now is a hedge against availability and significant price increases, what other reasonable alternatives are there?

I'd also point out there is very limited data points to make any conclusion. I've opened several tins of McClelland from the 90's (Christmas Cheer and Bombay Extra) that tasted more full and rich than fresh tobacco. I only put the lid back on and the tobacco was just as good several months later. I had some Mac Baren Virginia blend gifted to me that was from the 70's in a jar. It blew my socks off, I couldn't believe how rich and strong it was and how sharp the flavors were. I screwed the lid back on and smoked on it for several months, no problem.

I also haven't heard how these decades old tins were stored? On a store shelf? In a garage with no temperature or humidity control? Is the seal on tins made these days better or worse than they were decades ago? Again, there is a lot of missing data from very limited data points. Certainly not enough data to draw any kind of accurate conclusion.

My point is there's nothing I see here that would even come close to making me panic over my cellar. Harris is consistently, day in, day out, smoking tobacco that is over 10 years old and has reported zero problems that I know of.

That's all very encouraging, and I agree, there isn't much alternative if you want to be absolutely certain you'll have good blends to smoke in the future, and of course agree with your point about limited data. The limited data is really why I made this post - to see if I can gather a bit more data.

I do think anyone trying to build a decades-deep cellar does need to consider the experiences of those who have seen old tins pretty much die within a day or two of opening. Likewise, I am very encouraged to hear of decades-old tins that have better withstood the test of time.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Not to be a negative Nancy, but just putting a tin in a jar doesn’t limit exposure to oxygen. That’s like pouring a 750ml bottle of wine into a gallon jug to prevent it from oxygenating.

I have also had tobaccos like reported that has been 20osh that was perfectly fine, no shitdust at all.
And people posting about ten years WTF, ha ha. That’s not even close to worry. I don’t even think of that as aged.

No, at the 20 year point, I wouldn’t worry much.
Get you 10 to 20 people, pit in $5 to 20 bucks a piece every Wednesday and buy an aged tin of this or that and try it for yourself. I did this weekly for a few years when I ran the pipe club. It’s fun and educational. And, maybe it will give you a better idea of what you want to set back for latter also.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I also have contrary view on future availability. I don't think smoking is going anywhere. Look at all the college aged kids who are vaping now.

No, I don’t think the gubbmit will be the death of tobacco. Phillip Morris has promices to stop production. That will be the death of it.
Where do you think pipe tobacco is coming from? Tobacco is now run by them. Only maybe a handful of farmers are growing outside of full corporate control of Big Cig. And, kids don’t want to take over the family farm, because there is no money in it now. They especially wont want to farm tobacco when no one is buying.

And, I have no faith that a bunch of kids vaping will take up pipes and cigars enough to make them viable enough to offset costs of losing Big cig as a corporate meal ticket.
The cigarette industry has already diversified away from tobacco as the main profit. They could stop tomorrow, and still show a profit.
Guess who buys my corn and soy beans. They run agriculture now.

No, it won’t be the gov. It’ll just be business.

 

[kcghost]

Well it's kind of a crap shoot. I got a 40+ year olf tin of Cope's Escudo that I would give anything to have more of. On the other hand I had a similarly aged tin of the same stuff (Cope's Escudo) and it wasn't worth a popcorn fart when compared to the other one.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Not to be a negative Nancy, but just putting a tin in a jar doesn’t limit exposure to oxygen. That’s like pouring a 750ml bottle of wine into a gallon jug to prevent it from oxygenating.

I have also had tobaccos like reported that has been 20osh that was perfectly fine, no shitdust at all.
And people posting about ten years WTF, ha ha. That’s not even close to worry. I don’t even think of that as aged.

No, at the 20 year point, I wouldn’t worry much.
Get you 10 to 20 people, pit in $5 to 20 bucks a piece every Wednesday and buy an aged tin of this or that and try it for yourself. I did this weekly for a few years when I ran the pipe club. It’s fun and educational. And, maybe it will give you a better idea of what you want to set back for latter also.

Putting it in to a jar would somewhat limit the exposure to oxygen/air but obviously, once the tin is opened, the tobacco is immediately exposed to the atmosphere. I'm not questioning your experience with very old tobacco purchased from Pipestud. You may have as much experience as anyone here. However, you admit it wasn't 100% and you didn't state how many tins overall were purchased, what each tobacco was, how old it was and which ones turned to shitdust and which ones were okay. I respect your opinions a lot but given the lack of detailed data, I'm not going to panic. And again, I don't see what options I really have. I'm 64 and have no guarantee to live another day so it may be a moot point anyway.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Putting it in to a jar would somewhat limit the exposure to oxygen/air but obviously, once the tin is opened, the tobacco is immediately exposed to the atmosphere. I'm not questioning your experience with very old tobacco purchased from Pipestud. You may have as much experience as anyone here. However, you admit it wasn't 100% and you didn't state how many tins overall were purchased, what each tobacco was, how old it was and which ones turned to shitdust and which ones were okay. I respect your opinions a lot but given the lack of detailed data, I'm not going to panic. And again, I don't see what options I really have. I'm 64 and have no guarantee to live another day so it may be a moot point anyway.

I’m sorry I didn’t keep data for you, Mark. I don’t expect to kick up a panic, nor have I said anything that would. If someone doesn’t know that there is a risk with cellaring they’re a moron. Everything has risk. You know this.
And, at the 20 year mark, I’ve had less turn to shit than at 40ish.
We are almost the same age by 6 yearsz
Anyways, like you said, the two of is don't have as much to worry about as these kids on here. And, I have suggested folks buy old tins in small groups of a long while. Check it out for yourself.
But, I’m not going to blow sunshine up anyone’s ass about this. Besides, it’s not just me. There are hundreds of reports of about the same on here. This isn’t just some “Cosmic posting shit” thing, ha ha.

Hey, Mark, save me a seat outside at the nursing home, I’ll have my girls sneak us in some pre STG Escudo to smoke on the porch.

 

[sablebrush52]

That's exactly what I'm concerned about. It's looking more and more like cellaring is not a panacea to all future tobacco price and availability problems. That said, I expect there will always be some good tobacco around to fill our pipes.



I am hoping to figure out the reasonable expected longevity of a tin of tobacco, which I would define as however many years can you hang on to a tin, open it, and smoke it fairly casually without worrying about it withering away to nothing. It's looking like perhaps twenty years or so might be the applicable timeframe here.

It also depends on so many factors. How was the tin stored, what's in the blend, etc, etc. Over the super long run, burley holds up better than Virginia in my experience. Latakia can last a lot longer than many think, but not always. Toppings generally fade over time.

Just think of it as something of a crap shoot, worth taking if you're buying new at retail, but more of a question when buying on the secondary market. That's my experience.

I generally won't buy a vintage tin that's older than 15 years, tops and that's to enjoy, not to cellar further. But I've broken that rule a couple of times, with mixed results. It starts to get pretty hit or miss after 15 years, given how tins fail. On the other hand, I've enjoyed some pretty sublime 50+ year old blends. Those were mostly from cutter tops.

 

[condorlover1]

@ashdigger is the absolute king of ancient pipe tobacco since he generously shares stuff around the forum. I would come across the tins in the U.K as I had a friend in construction and every time he would gut an old shop he would look out for tins in the back of cupboards or that had rolled behind shop units.

 

[karam]

I have shared my personal experience with old tobacco here: I once bought 25g 2003 SG Balkan Flake. Nearly black, rubbery, crusted. Smelled very complex, savoury, sweet, spicy, very faintly smokey. Smoked one flake which was the best thing I have ever smoked, then jarred the rest for special occasions. When such an occasion came the smoke - and all the rest - was flat, tasteless hot air with a whiff of Latakia.
I have the same concern as you do, being nearly 40, that i may cellar now but tobacco bought today wouldn’t necessarily guarantee good smoking in the long run. Then again, there may not be any worthwhile pipe tobacco around in 20 years, so just cellar

 

[Worknman]

The oldest tin I've smoked is some 2007 Artisan’s Blend. Its been jarred for several months and hasn't lost any moisture or taste since I opened it. And I've smoked on it a few times since then. I haven't had fresh Artisan’s Blend but I can tell you the latakia is still on the same level as a fresh tin of nightcap fwiw.

 

[spicy_boiii]

Most of the old-ish stuff I've had has aged and lasted well after opening. I've never had anything over 20 years though.

The blends I like fresh tasted great aged. The blends I didn't like fresh didn't. Who wudda thunk?

 

[Peter Turbo]

i have some mcclellands blackwoods from 2003 that i opened and wasnt happy with the first smoke. i jarred it for a couple months and revisited it and it was way, way better.

 

[The Amish Tyrant]

I recently began cellaring and cooked for a living in a previous life.

A concept that has not been mention and possibly relevant to both cooking and cellaring is "FIFO" (first in, first out). In other words, you can add to or replace what they smoke from their cellar as "they go".

For example, you jar a pound to age and enjoy. Buy another pound a year later to have a consistent supply on hand. Once ready to enjoy the 1st jar, you will have a backup ready with slightly less age.

You can also re-use the remaining tobacco in smaller jars to test at say years 3, 5, and 10. This will provide a steady stream of aged tobacco using FIFO and allow you to enjoy the smoke at its optimal, prime age (based on your tastes).

It is just a thought and I am still waking up. So forgive me if I missed the boat or rambled incoherently.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I recently began cellaring and cooked for a living in a previous life.

A concept that has not been mention and possibly relevant to both cooking and cellaring is "FIFO" (first in, first out). In other words, you can add to or replace what they smoke from their cellar as "they go".

For example, you jar a pound to age and enjoy. Buy another pound a year later to have a consistent supply on hand. Once ready to enjoy the 1st jar, you will have a backup ready with slightly less age.

You can also re-use the remaining tobacco in smaller jars to test at say years 3, 5, and 10. This will provide a steady stream of aged tobacco using FIFO and allow you to enjoy the smoke at its optimal, prime age (based on your tastes).

It is just a thought and I am still waking up. So forgive me if I missed the boat or rambled incoherently.

This assumes that tobaccos remain just as cheap and available as they are today, but even so…. What other options do we have?

 

[The Amish Tyrant]

This assumes that tobaccos remain just as cheap and available as they are today, but even so…. What other options do we have?

Disclaimer: I was just considering the dust aspect and that I had never seen a post describe having a constant flow of the same tobacco in a cellar.

If you want me to attempt and solve other options and issues, it's best to wait until at least evening and provide a rocks glass, bottle of bourbon, pint glass full of ice, and a jar of tobacco.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I recently began cellaring and cooked for a living in a previous life.

A concept that has not been mention and possibly relevant to both cooking and cellaring is "FIFO" (first in, first out). In other words, you can add to or replace what they smoke from their cellar as "they go".

For example, you jar a pound to age and enjoy. Buy another pound a year later to have a consistent supply on hand. Once ready to enjoy the 1st jar, you will have a backup ready with slightly less age.

You can also re-use the remaining tobacco in smaller jars to test at say years 3, 5, and 10. This will provide a steady stream of aged tobacco using FIFO and allow you to enjoy the smoke at its optimal, prime age (based on your tastes).

It is just a thought and I am still waking up. So forgive me if I missed the boat or rambled incoherently.

This is my plan. As long as the pricing remains within reason, I'm going to buy something in the range of my yearly consumption each year.

 

[lawdawg]

No, I don’t think the gubbmit will be the death of tobacco. Phillip Morris has promices to stop production. That will be the death of it.

That's like arguing in 1775 that international trade was going to stop with the end of the Dutch East India Company in 1800. If demand exists, someone will find a way to supply it, and there is still a lot of demand for tobacco.

Where do you think pipe tobacco is coming from? Tobacco is now run by them. Only maybe a handful of farmers are growing outside of full corporate control of Big Cig. And, kids don’t want to take over the family farm, because there is no money in it now. They especially wont want to farm tobacco when no one is buying.

China, India, and Brazil. That's where tobacco in general mostly comes from now. Something like half of Chinese men smoke. Smoking is also popular in Japan, which of course is one of the most developed nations in the world. The anti-tobacco bent is strictly a Western thing. Granted, there is the world-wide WHO effort, but social and cultural norms in the East are not so anti-smoking as we are here.

I know lots here have more knowledge of the tobacco industry than I do, but I don't think it necessarily takes deep knowledge to make broad predictions on this sort of trend. Basically, I see tobacco as a popular consumable, like alcohol, coffee, and tea, and it's been both popular and controversial every since Westerners started enjoying it. I just don't think it's going anywhere. Too much demand. Granted, prices will inevitably go up, demand will decline, and it's always possible that pipe smoking dies in its entirety (which I think is unlikely given it's popularity in Scandinavian countries and the increasing popularity in ), but the likelihood of ending tobacco use is about as high as ending the consumption of alcohol.

Smoking could eventually, one day, die out, but it's death is certainly not imminent, particular with its popularity in the East.

 

[WVOldFart]

Note that Simon said "If not jarred up ....." I'm not a chemist but will make the assumption the reintroduction of oxygen to the leaf causes it to break down. Not unreasonable to think that. But what's the big deal with jarring an old tin that's been opened?

Given that cellaring deep now is a hedge against availability and significant price increases, what other reasonable alternatives are there?

I'd also point out there is very limited data points to make any conclusion. I've opened several tins of McClelland from the 90's (Christmas Cheer and Bombay Extra) that tasted more full and rich than fresh tobacco. I only put the lid back on and the tobacco was just as good several months later. I had some Mac Baren Virginia blend gifted to me that was from the 70's in a jar. It blew my socks off, I couldn't believe how rich and strong it was and how sharp the flavors were. I screwed the lid back on and smoked on it for several months, no problem.

I also haven't heard how these decades old tins were stored? On a store shelf? In a garage with no temperature or humidity control? Is the seal on tins made these days better or worse than they were decades ago? Again, there is a lot of missing data from very limited data points. Certainly not enough data to draw any kind of accurate conclusion.

My point is there's nothing I see here that would even come close to making me panic over my cellar. Harris is consistently, day in, day out, smoking tobacco that is over 10 years old and has reported zero problems that I know of.

I think you have the gist of the situation. Once oxygen can get to it, it will start to decay. This happens to many things. Well preserved items or bodies from centuries ago that have been found in bogs or permafrost start to decompose once air can get to them. Hell, air is getting to me and everyday I seem to get older. Before I know it I'll be some of Cosmic's shitdust.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

China, India, and Brazil. That's where it mostly comes from now.

I know lots here have more knowledge of the tobacco industry than I do,

You've got some good points, and maybe...
But, the US is where the majority of flue cured is coming from, with maybe an exception for Ukrainian varieties. Flue curing is almost all exclusively done by the cigarette industry. So, I will amend this to read that pipe tobacco as we know it would end with the elimination of big cigarette's involvement. I'm not sure how crazy current American tastes would be for just burleys and oriental varieties grown abroad, but sure.

I do wish I had your optimism, I really do. I also notice that when I used to stop and buy gas, that there would always be a few people at the counter buying cigarettes. But, it's been forever since I have seen someone buy a pack. I am a chatty guy, so I'll ask the guys who I know have been running a station a long while how sales are compared to the 80-90's... and they restock weekly, whereas in the 90's they were unboxing cartons a day, and they'll point to a certain brand, and tell me that they have not sold any of this or that in over a year. And, try finding chewing tobacco, and THIS IS ALABAMA!

The thing that kept cigarettes going as an addiction is that most of us started at 14 years old, before we were smart enough to realize what a stupid thing we were doing. We've gone a decade now, with very few younger smokers coming in. I just don't foresee a huge demand for cigarettes in ten more years. And, at a recent funeral, I found that all of my friends who were cigarettes smokers back in college had quit. So, I just stood outside with my pipe by myself.

like I said, I just don't have your optimism.

 

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I tend to be an optimist also. When I read cellaring I can't help of thinking "addiction buying" or the fear of being without an addictive drug. Since I was addicted for decades, I can speak from experience.

However, addictiive purchasing can include many consumables.