Calculating The Heat of Compression

[huntertrw]

With regard to the Titan submersible disaster, it never occurred to me that heat would be generated by the compression implosion. I believe that the degree (pardon the pun) of heat may be calculated as follows:

T1* (17/1)^0.4 = T2 This is the inlet temperature * by the compression ratio ^ 0.4
(Reference: Calculating heat of compression? - https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/calculating-heat-of-compression.405687/)

Let's assume that the Inlet Temperature (T1) was the temperature inside of the Titan just prior to implosion, say 65-degees Fahrenheit (291.48-degrees Kelvin).

Let's also assume that the atmospheric pressure inside of the Titan was 14.67 PSI, and that the hydrostatic pressure at the implosion depth was 4,757 PSI. That makes the compression ratio 324.26/1.

Thus, our equation is 291.48 * (324.26/1) ^.4 = 29,439.48-degrees Kelvin or 52,531.39-degrees Fahrenheit. To put that into prospective, according to the NASA Website, the surface temperature of the sun is 10,000-degrees Fahrenheit. Wow!

Mathematicians and/or physicists, please let me know if my approach (and arithmetic) is correct.

 

[Briar Lee]

I’d not considered, that the first breach of a pressure vessel with over six tons of pressure per inch would generate an intense heat, but it would as surely as a penetrator round going through a tank turret.

 

[warren]

Looks right to me and my 12th grade educated mind.

 

[ashdigger]

Plasma man, plasma.


Oh, and don’t forget the speed of chum.

 

[Chasing Embers]

And it all happened faster that nerve conduction. They were dead and reduced to nothingness before there brains would've registered danger.

 

[Chasing Embers]

I’d not considered, that the first breach of a pressure vessel with over six tons of pressure per inch would generate an intense heat, but it would as surely as a penetrator round going through a tank turret.

Yep, posted that in the other thread. Absolutely mind boggling.

 

[georged]

...and that was "only" 12,000 feet down.

The Mariana Trench (which has been visited by humans) is 36,000 feet down.

 

[ashdigger]

...and that was "only" 12,000 feet down.

The Mariana Trench (which has been visited by humans) is 36,000 feet down.

Four humans in total have been to the Trench. That’s crazy.

 

[LotusEater]

Question
If the heat was that intense and the vessel was not very big why is there any sort of debris field? The vessel imploded it didn’t explode and I would think that temps even approaching those being speculated would vaporize everything in the vicinity.
Thoughts?

 

[Briar Lee]

Question
If the heat was that intense and the vessel was not very big why is there any sort of debris field? The vessel imploded it didn’t explode and I would think that temps even approaching those being speculated would vaporize everything in the vicinity.
Thoughts?

I would think it would have to do with the heat being an extremely quick flash, with no sustained energy beyond the first rush of air being compressed by high pressure sea water.

The first breech created a heat spike.

Then in milliseconds the compromised cylinder gave way and imploded.

I’ve been looking at the passenger capsules of other deep sea submersibles and they are spheres, and tiny by comparison.

The gondola on Trieste was only a 59 inch sphere, where two men sat.

That’s about like two guys in a round trash barrel.

On the other hand the Titan was 22 feet long, 9 feet wide, and 8 feet tall. It was advertised as having the room of a mini van without chairs.

There was a bunch of air inside to conpress and blow the ends off.

 

[sablebrush52]

Well, I guess there won't be any kind of a search for the bodies, since they've been rendered into atoms, or less.

 

[ashdigger]

Question
If the heat was that intense and the vessel was not very big why is there any sort of debris field? The vessel imploded it didn’t explode and I would think that temps even approaching those being speculated would vaporize everything in the vicinity.
Thoughts?

It’s about time and intensity. Flash fires can have a sizable energy release, but the heat release rate wouldn’t be sustainable.

A common example in my field is that a three cushion sofa has the approximate heat release rate of a gallon of gasoline.

One burns intensely for a short duration and the other has mass.

The difference is sustained energy.

 

[LotusEater]

It’s about time and intensity. Flash fires can have a sizable energy release, but the heat release rate wouldn’t be sustainable.

A common example in my field is that a three cushion sofa has the approximate heat release rate of a gallon of gasoline.

One burns intensely for a short duration and the other has mass.

The difference is sustained energy.

This makes sense to me but it seems to suggest that the heat generated by the compression is only mildly interesting. The pressure crushed to bodies and the vessel and the heat that was generated was immaterial.

I thought people were implying that the passengers were vaporized by the heat.

 

[ashdigger]

This makes sense to me but it seems to suggest that the heat generated by the compression is only mildly interesting. The pressure crushed to bodies and the vessel and the heat that was generated was immaterial.

I thought people were implying that the passengers were vaporized by the heat.

They were shredded and burned at the same time. Tons of pressure and heat tend to be cataclysmic to soft tissue.

 

[canucklehead]

There was probably a big flash/re-explosion, I think there would be a big sonoluminescent effect if anyone were to observe it.

 

[mingc]

With regard to the Titan submersible disaster, it never occurred to me that heat would be generated by the compression implosion. I believe that the degree (pardon the pun) of heat may be calculated as follows:

T1* (17/1)^0.4 = T2 This is the inlet temperature * by the compression ratio ^ 0.4
(Reference: Calculating heat of compression? - https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/calculating-heat-of-compression.405687/)

Let's assume that the Inlet Temperature (T1) was the temperature inside of the Titan just prior to implosion, say 65-degees Fahrenheit (291.48-degrees Kelvin).

Let's also assume that the atmospheric pressure inside of the Titan was 14.67 PSI, and that the hydrostatic pressure at the implosion depth was 4,757 PSI. That makes the compression ratio 324.26/1.

Thus, our equation is 291.48 * (324.26/1) ^.4 = 29,439.48-degrees Kelvin or 52,531.39-degrees Fahrenheit. To put that into prospective, according to the NASA Website, the surface temperature of the sun is 10,000-degrees Fahrenheit. Wow!

Mathematicians and/or physicists, please let me know if my approach (and arithmetic) is correct.

I get 2,944.19°K from 291.48*(324.26/1)^0.4

291.48*(324.26/1)^0.4=291.48*(324.26)^0.4
291.48*(324.26)^0.4=291.48*10.10
291.48*10.10=2,944.19

2,944.19°K is 4,839.87°F

I think I got that right.

 

[Briar Lee]

Well, I guess there won't be any kind of a search for the bodies, since they've been rendered into atoms, or less.

There will likely be an intensive effort to bring up a lot of the vessel, although maybe not all 23 tons of it.

And while us pipe smoking armchair marine engineers and forensic experts seem to have solved this mystery, consider that enough traces of every person who died on the space shuttles Challenger and Columbia were recovered so that each individual was positively identified.

There was rather some intense heat involved in those events, you know?.

Cabin, Remains of Astronauts Found : Divers Positively Identify Challenger Compartment on Floor of Atlantic

The crew compartment of the space shuttle Challenger, with the remains of astronauts aboard, has been found 100 feet beneath the sea off the coast of Florida, NASA officials announced Sunday.

www.latimes.com

Recovering the Space Shuttle Columbia | Federal Bureau of Investigation

When the space shuttle Columbia disaster occurred 15 years ago, the FBI was tasked with recovering the remains of the crew, stabilizing hazardous material, and securing classified equipment.

www.fbi.gov

As the little boy said, sometimes I’s wrong , but I’s don’t never mean to be wrong.

 

[Briar Lee]

Four humans in total have been to the Trench. That’s crazy.

The deepest part of the Mariana Trench is called Challenger Deep, about 36,000 feet deep.

Two guys in a bathyscaphe reached it in 1960.

Then James Cameron in his own one person submersible in 2012.

Since 2019, there’s been a two person submersible named Limiting Factor that’s almost established a shuttle service, plus a three person Chinese submersible named Striver has made one dive.

List of people who descended to Challenger Deep - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Human nature being what it is, the others will say our subs are not made of carbon fiber, so come on down and visit Challenger Deep.

And people will go.

 

[Hfinn]

I think the hydrostatic pressure would have been lower. Wiki states that the vessel was able to sustain a pressure of 4,285 psi.

The timing of the last communication from Titan with its parent ship indicates that the catastrophic failure occurred closer to the end of its descent.

The depth of the ocean floor where the Titanic lies is 3800 meters or 12,500 feet. The journey to this depth typically took 2 to 3 hours, according to various sources, so we can use the average of 2.5 hours. Dive time before loss of communication 1 hour 45 minutes.

Based on this, we can estimate that the implosion occurred somewhere at a depth of 2,660 meters or 8,730 feets.

With a water density of 1000 kg/m³ and the acceleration due to gravity of approximately 9.8 m/s² (seems this can be used for ocean waters), the hydrostatic pressure at a depth of 8,730 feets would be 260 bar or 3,770 psi.

 

[sablebrush52]

I think the hydrostatic pressure would have been lower. Wiki states that the vessel was able to sustain a pressure of 4,285 psi.

Don't forget, the viewing window was rated for a maximum depth of 1300 meters. So unless the window doesn't count, Wiki is wrong.
Each dive was another round of Russian Roulette.
But whether the crew got disappeared at 5 times the heat of the sun, or a much lower pressure and temp, they were probably rendered into chemical compounds if not atoms.