Bulk to Jar vs Tin: Seeking tales of cellaring experience

[Oddball]

Greetings!
I thought I would pose this to the group. If t's covered elsewhere, please direct.
Last night I was jarring up some recent purchases of some bulk.

A bag of Samuel Gawith Skiff Mixture... my beloved Skiff.

A a box each of St. James Flake and Navy Flake.

I have smoked all these in their tin form many times and really enjoy them all so when I saw the boxes show up online and at the B&M I stoked up, despite having tins of them all in the cellar.


I noticed a significant difference in the feels between these bulk offerings vs what comes out of the tins. These were noticeably drier. I don't think that is a bad thing, they felt like they were ready to pack now vs having to let a tin flake dry out for a bit, something I rarely do but have heard and seen others do.


My question is really about storage. I broke the Skiff into three jars and the flakes into two jars each, labeled them and slid them into their spots in the cellar. Has anyone noticed a difference, really only in flavor and or aging vs tinned blends using the same method?


Is this much to do about nothing, as time will even things out?

I bought two boxes of bulk stuff from an estate last march, FVF and SJF. The FVF was perfect, leathering, tacky and blew my socks off. The SJF bag had lost integrity, the flakes were dry and crumbly. I kept them, still in jars a year later, still crumbly, I may rehydrate one day but don't want the issue to repeat. It's a separate but related issue so I thought I would include it. These SG flake age so well that even a 1-2 years really makes a leap of a difference.

Thanks for any tales folks can share! Happy to answer any follow up questions.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I have not. Maybe it's my imagination but it seems like the SG Flakes in boxes are cut a bit thinner than those in the tins. Bottom line, I don't notice any difference after some years of aging.

 

[bullet08]

Things in bag might need to go into jar. Tins are usually safe. Some rectangular tins might pop. But seems like that depends on your luck.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

My take on this, is that if the company is not going to make me feel confident that these tins are going to stay sealed, I'm not going to spend the extra money on them coming in tins, whereas with every other tobacco that comes in tins, I will usually prefer the tins over having to jar them. It makes no sense to me to spend $150 to get a pound in tins to just throw away the tins and use my jars, when a hair under $90 to get a pound in boxes.

That all said, I am pretty disappointed in some dialog with this company rep on here, whereas all of the other companies that have come on here have been reassuring and left me feeling confident in that company's products. I've seen Greg Pease turn whole threads of complainers into totally sold consumers of his tobaccos. Maybe it is just conflicting personalities or maybe some are just better at spin and sales. But, I haven't been itching to drop more of my money on them at the moment, regardless. Ha ha, but I am sure that they will continue to sell out, regardless of what I do.

 

[Oddball]

I think my question can be applied to all blends sold in both bulk and tins, and what jarring does vs each option. That was my intent. It wasn't a tin integrity question. I have 3 dozen tins from them that are sealed and aging. Included a few from this year's two big drops in the US. I have vacuum sealed some but also have some that aren't.


I love my SG and wish not to upset the lords of G&H!

 

[sablebrush52]

Bulk from a tobacconist is often drier because it sits in large plastic storage bags until sold. These bags are not impermeable, so over time moisture evaporates out. Tins are not all the same. Because the pressure of the seal is evenly distributed around the circumference of a round tin, these hold their seal better than square and rectangular tins where the pressure is unevenly distributed.

How long to you think you will be holding these tins? More than a decade? If so, jar them or seal them in metallized Mylar, or do the same by transferring the contents. Less than a decade you shouldn't suffer too many losses amongst your square and rectangular tins. After all, tins were never designed nor meant for long term storage, so why expect them to hold up for years and years?

EDIT: Regarding any generalities regarding how blends age tinned VS jarred, none in my experience. It all varies. Case in point, last year I smoked some 2007 St James Flake that I had jarred. Same box, same jarring session, sat next to each other. One jar developed a very pleasing caramel sweetness. The other did not. It all varies and we really don't know what factors are involved.

 

[Oddball]

Thanks!
This is what I am after.
I am going to give the flake a year before opening but the skiff jar 3 may get pinched from time to time.

I have an old tin of SJF I am going to pop soon to see what I may be in for.

 

[biodarwin]

The answer is yes, there is a bit of difference. The effects of aging with oxygen and without oxygen are very different. Once you open a tin, the environment will never be the same. That doesn't mean it doesn't continue to age, just differently.

 

[Deano]

Bulk from a tobacconist is often drier because it sits in large plastic storage bags until sold. These bags are not impermeable, so over time moisture evaporates out. Tins are not all the same. Because the pressure of the seal is evenly distributed around the circumference of a round tin, these hold their seal better than square and rectangular tins where the pressure is unevenly distributed.

How long to you think you will be holding these tins? More than a decade? If so, jar them or seal them in metallized Mylar, or do the same by transferring the contents. Less than a decade you shouldn't suffer too many losses amongst your square and rectangular tins. After all, tins were never designed nor meant for long term storage, so why expect them to hold up for years and years?

EDIT: Regarding any generalities regarding how blends age tinned VS jarred, none in my experience. It all varies. Case in point, last year I smoked some 2007 St James Flake that I had jarred. Same box, same jarring session, sat next to each other. One jar developed a very pleasing caramel sweetness. The other did not. It all varies and we really don't know what factors are involved.

As to the bags that bulk is stored in, every time the bag is opened to get whatever an amount for a customer any moisture is lost and aging impossible. I have always thought tins are better unless your going to open it right away. But having said that l buy bulk and jar it because im a miser.

 

[Oddball]

These were the bulk bags and boxes sold whole, unopened.

 

[Misanthrope]

I haven't noticed a ton of difference between the tinned and bulk 1lb boxes of HH Burley Flake and HH Old Dark Fired, other than the flakes are twice as long in the bulk form, and they were a bit more moist, probably due to the fact the bulk version is sealed in a bag inside the box while the tinned stuff isn't particularly airtight and comes in a little folded up paper/foil thing snugged up into what looks like foam padding.

I move everything into CVaults with Boveda packs anyway, so I'm not overly bothered by variances in moisture between tinned/bulk stuff because it eventually normalizes to whatever the Boveda pack wants.

 

[Scottmi]

These were the bulk bags and boxes sold whole, unopened.

How old were the bulk bags, specifically the one that dried out?

 

[Oddball]

How old were the bulk bags, specifically the one that dried out?

One bag and two boxes bought from the recent Sam Gawith bulk drop.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

One bag and two boxes bought from the recent Sam Gawith bulk drop.

None of mine came in a bag. They were in a plastic tray with a heat sealed clear plastic covering, inside a box. Did they release several different packaged items?

 

[Oddball]

None of mine came in a bag. They were in a plastic tray with a heat sealed clear plastic covering, inside a box. Did they release several different packaged items?

The Flakes were in the boxes. The ready rubbed was all bagged. Just my Skiff in this case.

 

[sablebrush52]

The answer is yes, there is a bit of difference. The effects of aging with oxygen and without oxygen are very different. Once you open a tin, the environment will never be the same. That doesn't mean it doesn't continue to age, just differently.

The environment will be changes by opening a jar. But how much does that matter? In what direction will the aging process be altered? How will specific flavor characteristics be affected by the aging process being interrupted? How do we know that monthly or yearly uncappings don't offer significant improvements over time?

I've yet to meet anyone who can answer that sort of question with any kind of assuredness or authority. We have a general belief that aging offers improvement, which is a subjective judgement. Aging certainly offers change, but at what rate and in what direction?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

The environment will be changes by opening a jar. But how much does that matter? In what direction will the aging process be altered? How will specific flavor characteristics be affected by the aging process being interrupted? How do we know that monthly or yearly uncappings don't offer significant improvements over time?

I've yet to meet anyone who can answer that sort of question with any kind of assuredness or authority. We have a general belief that aging offers improvement, which is a subjective judgement. Aging certainly offers change, but at what rate and in what direction?

Deduction... we know a history of aging blends in tins that offers us a predictable outcome from years of experience with such. My own experience with jars reaching over ten years set beside tins, shows me that tin aging is far superior, IMO.
Then you have the whole wine industry that tells us what happens when too much oxygen reaches the buggers in that field, which is the same across the boards with all beverages and fermented foods... oxygenation is the enemy of aging. It seems to cause flatness of flavors. In cheeses the flatness gives us different varieties, with the lesser flavored cheeses being oxygenated.

Try opening and closing wine bottles, beer bottles, or even spirits. Even bourbon turns to shit when left in an opened and closed bottle for a few months.

Maybe, just maybe... disrupting the interior environment might improve just tobaccos out of all of the worlds fermented goods. Personally, I wouldn't invest money into cellaring something I am going risk turning to shit by opening and closing the tins or jars. That's just me. Other idiots can do what they want. But, this is also why I would NEVER buy a jar of something from someone, even if it were the most beloved forum member in the world.

 

[biodarwin]

The environment will be changes by opening a jar. But how much does that matter? In what direction will the aging process be altered? How will specific flavor characteristics be affected by the aging process being interrupted? How do we know that monthly or yearly uncappings don't offer significant improvements over time?

I've yet to meet anyone who can answer that sort of question with any kind of assuredness or authority. We have a general belief that aging offers improvement, which is a subjective judgement. Aging certainly offers change, but at what rate and in what direction?

Most of my knowledge of fermentation and understanding of yeast comes from brewing beer. This article better articulates a subject I know a bit about, but, by no means an expert. I firmly believe in aging in the tin, and the results are different.

The Latest Details

C and D Tobacco

www.cornellanddiehl.com

 

[Peterson314]

I mean... with this latest Gawith drop, the product arrived at your door really, really fresh from the factory. What would the difference be between being tinned at Gawith or being shipped to your door and then moved to a jar? Maybe a couple of weeks? As long as you're filling up the jars, I don't see it being that different from tins in the long run. That's how I look at it anyway.

 

[mngslvs]

A while back I opened a tin of St James Flake, 7 yrs old. Beautiful crystals on the tobacco . Outstanding smoke....I'd never had this blend before. On the strength of that experience I bought a quart jar of SJF from a well known forum member, 14 yrs old. The tobacco had none of those crystals (using "crystals" but not sure if this is the correct term). Not a complaint, just an observation.