British 'Dark-Fired Virginia'

[JohnClyde]

Yesterday I tried G&H Westmoreland Slices for the first time and was really thrown by it. On TR it was described as straight virginia and it clearly had what I know as a strong, deep, spicy kentucky/dark leaf profile. I read all available descriptions of it and it gets described as 'dark-fired virginia', 'African dark fired', and 'rich dusky virginias'.

After trawling the interwebs, I found a fascinating discussion on another forum in which the venerable Rusty linked to various sources to demonstrate that dark leaf is one distinct plant and the base of dark-fired aka DFK.

Fire Cured Virginia vs Dark Fired Kentucky - Christian Pipe Smokers

According to Rusty, dark-fired 'virginia' is probably a misnomer used by pipe tobacco manufacturers, unless of course it is referring to a dark-fired crop sourced from Virginia geographically, which Westmoreland and its ilk isn't.

Yet others referred to dark-fired virginia as an old empire style, alluding to the plant/crop being produced in Africa and India.

The discussion was left hanging about whether the seeds used to produce this old empire crop in India and Malawi is a strain of dark leaf or virginia.

I can't find an answer and don't use social media to ask Gawith and Hoggarth.

Has anyone here managed to establish what the answer is? Is it virginia leaf somehow processed in a way that mimics kentucky-style dark leaf OR is it an example of confusing inaccurate manufacturer terminology?

 

[hawky454]

Good question and I loves Westmorland Slices! I look forward to hearing some of the responses of those who might hold the answer. This has always confused me a bit as well.

 

[sumusfumus]

Very interesting. Thanks.

 

[smudgersmissingleg]

I've no idea but I love the stuff?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I’ve grown a variety of the African Virginias. See, marketing tells us that we have a variety called Virginias, but really known as a brightleaf variety to farmers. There are many different bright leafs, which are high carb varieties that do well with the flue curring process, turning them to sugars. I’m not sure where the African strains of Virginia came from. Whether they were merely an adaptation or hybrid of some of the burleys or orientals, or whether they just developed as a fragrant type as all other sorts of terra changes were happening in oriental varieties elsewhere. It is definitely a variety cultivated in the British Empire.
Now, we still fire cure Virginias commercially in the US. It is blended in with cigarettes and other forms of tobacco use, chewing etc...
I would think the Empire areas would still do the same, and somewhere along the way found that this fragrant variety reacted best with this process.
You’ll find malawi, dark fired Virginias, and what is sometimes called African Dark leaf in many Gawith creations from ropes to flakes, and adds it’s distinctive flavors to Dark Flake unscented to 1792.
It is a favorite of mine. It adds a full body cigarish note to a blend, but slightly plummy with a tang.

I haven’t been successful in properly curring it from my own grown small crop, but I have added a fire or smoke cured bit of it to some of my own blends. I used two 50 gallon barrels to try to get it dark cured, but I didn’t get it dark. But, it was slightly smokey and tangy.

I would love to go watch their processes in the old Empire areas. Unless they have switched to new high tech flues and such. But, it’d be cool to know.

 

[JohnClyde]

I’ve grown a variety of the African Virginias. See, marketing tells us that we have a variety called Virginias, but really known as a brightleaf variety to farmers. There are many different bright leafs, which are high carb varieties that do well with the flue curring process, turning them to sugars. I’m not sure where the African strains of Virginia came from. Whether they were merely an adaptation or hybrid of some of the burleys or orientals, or whether they just developed as a fragrant type as all other sorts of terra changes were happening in oriental varieties elsewhere. It is definitely a variety cultivated in the British Empire.
Now, we still fire cure Virginias commercially in the US. It is blended in with cigarettes and other forms of tobacco use, chewing etc...
I would think the Empire areas would still do the same, and somewhere along the way found that this fragrant variety reacted best with this process.
You’ll find malawi, dark fired Virginias, and what is sometimes called African Dark leaf in many Gawith creations from ropes to flakes, and adds it’s distinctive flavors to Dark Flake unscented to 1792.
It is a favorite of mine. It adds a full body cigarish note to a blend, but slightly plummy with a tang.

I haven’t been successful in properly curring it from my own grown small crop, but I have added a fire or smoke cured bit of it to some of my own blends. I used two 50 gallon barrels to try to get it dark cured, but I didn’t get it dark. But, it was slightly smokey and tangy.

I would love to go watch their processes in the old Empire areas. Unless they have switched to new high tech flues and such. But, it’d be cool to know.

Fantastic! Very helpful. So not only is there a dark leaf varietal, there's a multitude of bright leaf varietals that the industry generally refers to as virginias?

So I guess that means that the 'dark' bit of 'dark fired virginia' refer more to the colour of the final product, as opposed to 'dark fired' meaning dark leaf that has been fire-cured?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Fantastic! Very helpful. So not only is there a dark leaf varietal, there's a multitude of bright leaf varietals that the industry generally refers to as virginias?

So I guess that means that the 'dark' bit of 'dark fired virginia' refer more to the colour of the final product, as opposed to 'dark fired' meaning dark leaf that has been fire-cured?

Yes, it does cure to a dark color even when air cured. But, one thing all of these “bright leafs” seem to have in common is that they taste very bland when left to cure regularly. Varieties I have grown... Ukrainian, which is very lemony, cherry red, VaGold25, Canadian, and african.
In a conversation with Sykes on here last year, he sighted an author who is an expert in tobacco varieties (I wish I had access to that string again) who found that there were no differences between bright leafs and burleys. (I’m anxious to find out what they meant), IN my thinking, I think they meant that there wasn’t a common variety that these sprung from, (because the discovery of flu curing didn't happen till mid 1850’s) but, maybe some of the more bland leaf could be improved by turning carbs into sugars. Maybe if the blandness comes from an excess of carbs.

 

[mingc]

Yes, it does cure to a dark color even when air cured. But, one thing all of these “bright leafs” seem to have in common is that they taste very bland when left to cure regularly. Varieties I have grown... Ukrainian, which is very lemony, cherry red, VaGold25, Canadian, and african.
In a conversation with Sykes on here last year, he sighted an author who is an expert in tobacco varieties (I wish I had access to that string again) who found that there were no differences between bright leafs and burleys. (I’m anxious to find out what they meant), IN my thinking, I think they meant that there wasn’t a common variety that these sprung from, (because the discovery of flu curing didn't happen till mid 1850’s) but, maybe some of the more bland leaf could be improved by turning carbs into sugars. Maybe if the blandness comes from an excess of carbs.

Here's Sykes' post. Thanks for reminding me of it. I'm planning to tackle the book, Making Tobacco Bright by Barbara Hahn. According to Sykes, "she argues that there really isn't a true varietal difference between bright virginia and burleys at the seed level, it's all in cultivation and curing."

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Here's Sykes' post. Thanks for reminding me of it. I'm planning to tackle the book, Making Tobacco Bright by Barbara Hahn. According to Sykes, "she argues that there really isn't a true varietal difference between bright virginia and burleys at the seed level, it's all in cultivation and curing."

I went ahead and ordered it now, in case I forget it again. Thanks!!

 

[BROBS]

Makes me think of condor. Tastes like dfk but it’s all VA

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Makes me think of condor. Tastes like dfk but it’s all VA

DFK is a thing of it’s own, more Virginia than burley, as a burley, categorically wouldn’t take flue curring well, which is similar in process to fire curing. I believe it was the farmer member jitterbugdude who tried to make us aware of that.
Remember that “Virginias” is a marketing term, not an actual species. So, an “all Virginia blend” as a term is pretty much meaningless.

 

[georged]

I asked Mike McNeil about this some years ago.

He said DFK is a separate strain of tobacco, not just a more common leaf that's been treated/processed differently.

At the time there were only a handful of counties in Kentucky which still produced it.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I asked Mike McNeil about this some years ago.

He said DFK is a separate strain of tobacco, not just a more common leaf that's been treated/processed differently.

At the time there were only a handful of counties in Kentucky which still produced it.

Yeh, I’ve tried to flue and fire cure burley. It just doesn’t take the flavor, nor really does anything special in the flue.
It’s kinda it’s own thing. It would be interesting to know more about its development. It had to of come about after flue curing became a thing.

 

[F4RM3R]

Well the kentucky I buy from wholeleaftobacco says the "VA 309(kentucky) is a cross between VA 312 and Lizard Tail Orinoco"

Orinoco is a old type of tobacco from which the modern virginia tobaccos originated. It's quite strong and the lizard tail variety is alot milder and considered a bright leaf variety.

So I guess kentucky considered a virginia, but it does have burley like qualities for sure. But there are many types of virginia and some of them can be quite strong.

But technically burley and virginia are the same species but have different qualities from generations of growing and breeding under different climates and conditions.

This site has alot of seeds and it's interesting to see how much different varieties are out there.

Northwood Seeds Providing organically grown seed for home gardeners

Like any plant, there can be many variations from what is considered the original seed or mother plant. Take the brassica family, which contains vegetables like kale, broccoli, cabbage, brussel sprouts, radish, bok choy and more. All from the same seed many years back.

So to answer the question, it would seem those old world virginias and Kentucky both stem from similar plants that also have produced the common mild flue cured virginia that most people are familiar with. Just bred, crossed and selected for different characteristics. The kentucky and old world virginias of which you speak probably carry more of the traits of the original seed than a more modern flue cured type.

I plan to grow some orinoco next year and try it out.

 

[artvandelay007]

Yesterday I tried G&H Westmoreland Slices for the first time and was really thrown by it. On TR it was described as straight virginia and it clearly had what I know as a strong, deep, spicy kentucky/dark leaf profile. I read all available descriptions of it and it gets described as 'dark-fired virginia', 'African dark fired', and 'rich dusky virginias'.

After trawling the interwebs, I found a fascinating discussion on another forum in which the venerable Rusty linked to various sources to demonstrate that dark leaf is one distinct plant and the base of dark-fired aka DFK.

Fire Cured Virginia vs Dark Fired Kentucky - Christian Pipe Smokers

According to Rusty, dark-fired 'virginia' is probably a misnomer used by pipe tobacco manufacturers, unless of course it is referring to a dark-fired crop sourced from Virginia geographically, which Westmoreland and its ilk isn't.

Yet others referred to dark-fired virginia as an old empire style, alluding to the plant/crop being produced in Africa and India.

The discussion was left hanging about whether the seeds used to produce this old empire crop in India and Malawi is a strain of dark leaf or virginia.

I can't find an answer and don't use social media to ask Gawith and Hoggarth.

Has anyone here managed to establish what the answer is? Is it virginia leaf somehow processed in a way that mimics kentucky-style dark leaf OR is it an example of confusing inaccurate manufacturer terminology?

This is my favorite G&H label blend. You are right to want to do some investigating.

 

[karam]

Great thread, I've also wondered about what the Gawith house calls dark/dark-fired/fire-cured VIRGINIA.

It'd be good to have @rajangan in this thread too I think.

 

[rajangan]

Fire cured VA is not bright leaf. It's as Rusty said in that other forum, dark tobacco which has been fire cured. Dark tobacco can also be air cured.

Dark tobacco has several categories: dark fire, dark air, cigar filler, and cigar wrapper.

Calling bright leaf "Virginia" is common so I roll with it, but it's technically wrong because most strains are neither from nor grown in VA. But that's off topic.

The reason for the term VA fire cured is due to the fact that VA309, VA355, & VA359 are commonly grown dark fire tobaccos. I believe they may have shorter growing seasons than many of the others, some of which either have real names like Little Crittendon, and Madole, or state numbers like TN##, OR KY##. But then they would call it Kentucky fire. It's all basically the same.

 

[trubka2]

This thread is awesome. Thanks for the info and the book reference (already in the reading queue for tonight). So, to see if I've got this straight: when GH write "Dark fired VA," they mean the same thing other blenders mean when they write "Dark Fired Kentucky"?

GH have some incredibly confusing blend descriptions, like this one for one of my favorites: "Scotch Mixture is comprised of Brazilian, Zimbabwe and Malawi Virginia (53%) which are blended with Malawi sun cured (10%), and Malawi burley (17%). The relatively high proportion of burley helps to carry the special Virginia casing which sweetens and flavors the blend. To this we then add a small proportion of black cavendished dark fired (7.5%) to cool the smoke, and finally the latakia (12.5%)". What in the hell is cavendished dark fired? Just baked DFK? That would be like roasting a pork shoulder after it sat in the smoker all night...

 

[rajangan]

This thread is awesome. Thanks for the info and the book reference (already in the reading queue for tonight). So, to see if I've got this straight: when GH write "Dark fired VA," they mean the same thing other blenders mean when they write "Dark Fired Kentucky"?

GH have some incredibly confusing blend descriptions, like this one for one of my favorites: "Scotch Mixture is comprised of Brazilian, Zimbabwe and Malawi Virginia (53%) which are blended with Malawi sun cured (10%), and Malawi burley (17%). The relatively high proportion of burley helps to carry the special Virginia casing which sweetens and flavors the blend. To this we then add a small proportion of black cavendished dark fired (7.5%) to cool the smoke, and finally the latakia (12.5%)". What in the hell is cavendished dark fired? Just baked DFK? That would be like roasting a pork shoulder after it sat in the smoker all night...

They kinda mean the same thing. Fire cured VA might not be identical to fire cured KY. The tobacco may have slight difference, and the wood used might also be different. Not saying they are. I haven't had the opportunity to compare.

My deduction is that in the Scottish case they mean flue cured bright leaf when they say Virginia because fire cured VA wouldn't be "sweet".

Cavendish would be steamed, not baked. (Baked would be toasted.)

 

[rajangan]

7 CFR § 30.37 - Class 2; fire-cured types and groups.

www.law.cornell.edu

§ 30.37 Class 2; fire-cured types and groups.
(a) Type 21. That kind of fire-cured tobacco commonly known as Virginia Fire-cured, or Dark-fired, produced principally in the Piedmont and mountain sections of Virginia.

(b) Type 22. That type of fire-cured tobacco, known as Eastern District Fire-cured, produced principally in a section east of the Tennessee River in southern Kentucky and northern Tennessee.

(c) Type 23. That type of fire-cured tobacco, known as Western District Fire-cured or Dark-fired, produced principally in a section west of the Tennessee River in Kentucky and extending into Tennessee.

Groups applicable to types 21, 22, and 23:
A - Wrappers.
B - Heavy Leaf.
C - Thin Leaf.
X - Lugs.
N - Nondescript, as defined.
S - Scrap, as defined.