Briar Pipe price vs quality

[okiescout]

"especially that a product will be repaired or replaced if not of a specified quality and durability."
Walt, as I understand it, Ryan is saying he will stand behind his product. "Repair or replace". Ryan did not make the briar. He can use good judgement and skill but no one could guarantee the briar absolutely. That being said, he is guaranteeing customers he will stand behind his work, a very admirable attitude and a wise one, in my opinion.
" but there's no guarantee that any pipe made by anyone will be a great pipe"
I think when Brush used the term "guarantee" he meant in every specific pipe.
My understanding of what Sablebrush52 said is: there is no "absolute" that any pipe will be a great smoker in and of its self at any price point. As opposed to whether it is "guaranteed" by the maker, seller, whoever.

 

[wcannoy]

My understanding of what Sablebrush52 said is: there is no "absolute" that any pipe will be a great smoker in and of its self at any price point. As opposed to whether it is "guaranteed" by the maker, seller, whoever.

So, perhaps "absolute" is the best way to get the point across... However, as the presence of a formal "guarantee" reduces the risk on the buyer's side to zero, then "absolute" becomes a moot point.

 

[sablebrush52]

guar·an·tee

/ɡerənˈtē/

noun

1.

a formal promise or assurance (typically in writing) that certain conditions will be fulfilled, especially that a product will be repaired or replaced if not of a specified quality and durability.
Ryan has already said that his pipes are guaranteed to be great. I can think of at least one more brand that is guaranteed.

Nice try. I like Ryan and love the pipe that I bought from him. I's a magical pipe and in my top ten. I also enjoy Walt's pipes. But there are no absolutes when it comes to briar. What Ryan can do is offer to repair or replace a pipe if it fails to live up to his standards or fails to to satisfy, which shows his integrity and his commitment to his craft. Any maker not willing to guarantee his/her own work should not be patronized.
But that and was also true of Dunhill, Barling, Comoy, and most of the high end factory makers. It was a standard practice. And you know why that guarantee to replace a defective product exists? Because there is NO ABSOLUTE WAY TO GUARANTEE THAT EVERY UNIT WILL BE GREAT when it is made. If there were, there would be no need to guarantee replacement or repair. Simple and no need to muddy the waters.
Try again.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Sable, did you read that definition? With all due respect, I think that you are confusing and absolute promise with guarantee.

a formal promise or assurance (typically in writing) that certain conditions will be fulfilled, especially that a product will be repaired or replaced if not of a specified quality and durability.

A guarantee is not a promise that absolutely noting is wrong, but that if there is, then the product will be repaired or replaced.
Absolutely no one can assure something 100%. There are natural flaws in everything from the chromosomes to possible crystalline fractures that can never be seen. So, by your definition, nothing can be guaranteed. But, by the definition that is published in dictionaries that we all agree to accept, there can still be flaws, but that if there is, the maker will make the deal right with the buyer. That is an absolute guarantee. Believe me, I had to discuss this all with my attorney when I set up my business. Anyone in the "making" biz has hashed through this at one point or another.
Sorry buddy.

 

[wcannoy]

Because there is NO ABSOLUTE WAY TO GUARANTEE THAT EVERY UNIT WILL BE GREAT when it is made. If there were, there would be no need to guarantee replacement or repair.

I get what you are saying... I really do.
You are saying that if I sell you a particular pipe, there is no way to know if that particular pipe will perform properly until it is trialed by fire. It's a crap shoot... I get it.
My problem is with the language, and more-so with what the language implies.
"There is no guarantee..." implies that a buyer is stuck with a pipe if they don't like it once it is in hand. This turns buyers off of the idea of trying new things, and shopping online. It complicates the pipe buying process, and stresses out buyers.
The Cardinal House pipes guarantee that I instituted in writing on my website promises to refund the money you spent on your pipe if you don't like the way it looks, feels, smells, smokes, or whatever...
So, yes, although I can't guarantee tell you with absolute certainty that any given pipe specifically will be a great pipe, I will absolutely guarantee that it will... meaning, by the very definition of the word, that your money is not wasted if the pipe is not great.

 

[bigpond]

If you buy pipe X and it sucks for whatever reason, the pipe maker will get you a new pipe. What is hard to understand about this? He could call it "The Cannoy Contract for the Betterment of Your Smoking Pleasure" and the end result and means of resolution would be the same, as stipulated on the website.
Arguments of semantics are fine and all, but are we missing the point here?
As had been mentioned by several other posters the only way to tell your pipe is a pipe turd is by smoking it. That means every factory pipe is a gamble and once you spark it up your SOL. Artisan pipes are the same unless you have an overt declaration from the pipe maker, as Walt has done here. Lacking that, all we really have is the good will of the artisan and their sense of personal responsibility. Which is a precarious thing when some of these folks are working to eat.
This is interesting timing for me because I'm going through this right now with a pipe maker unmentioned in this thread. Got a pipe turd...smoked the hell out of it in hopes that another bowl would help it turn a corner, i.e. the magic of break in....
Well, I contacted him months after purchase just to let him know how things were going and he offered to refund my purchase price. I was shocked. I refused, but appreciated the gesture. There was no guarantee of quality other than reputation when I purchased the pipe. Had there been, I wouldn't have felt guilty about a return and might now have a much better pipe.
The result is that I"m far more cautious (or educated) about artisan pipes and am more likely to buy a pipe with a guarantee clearly stated prior to purchase. I once said that having a guarantee was the difference between asking and telling. I prefer to have the pipe maker tell me up front rather than come back and ask (and hope) they'll come through.

 

[jpmcwjr]

OK, Let's now move on to discuss warranties.... I think I understand what you guys are saying, and if so, it comes down to close examination of language.... right?? Or did I miss the boat entirely.
Speaking of boats, spent the day yesterday at the San Diego Maritime Museum. There, a sweet 100 year old boat called the Medea is docked. On her, amidships, is the nicest salon you'll ever see, wood paneled and lots of windows. And it's specifically for smoking!

 

[sablebrush52]

"There is no guarantee..." implies that a buyer is stuck with a pipe if they don't like it once it is in hand. This turns buyers off of the idea of trying new things, and shopping online. It complicates the pipe buying process, and stresses out buyers.

Walt,
That's what you imply. I implied no such thing. I stated a simple fact. What anyone does with it is theirs.

 

[misterlowercase]

I stated a simple fact. What anyone does with it is theirs.

I agree with Sable here.
Just as the looker makes the picture,

the reader makes the text.
Sable's original post,

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/briar-pipe-price-vs-quality#post-901233

was a simple and realistic statement of fact.
Somehow two different conversations got rolling,

one of which was in a different context and may have caused confusion.
I think bigpond got it right with this:

Arguments of semantics are fine and all, but are we missing the point here?

:!:
*and to try and inject some humor here,

I offer y'all the misterlowercase Nebulous Spot Guarantee:
Complete comprehension is guaranteed when reading the internet;

in fact, a new internet will be given instantly if any fault is found.

:P

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I've been married for a few months now, so I'm probably wrong. At least I've gotten used to saying so, ha ha! But, I think we were both (all) talking from the same point anyways.

 

[misterlowercase]

LOL
I knew I shouldn't have gotten involved here.
I was just saying that wires got crossed somewhere along the line,

one statement was about empirical truth,

and one statement was about conditional truth.
In my mind there is a difference,

but I am often guilty of misreading things so any point I may attempt to make should be taken with a philosophical grain of salt.

 

[lonestar]

a new internet will be given instantly if any fault is found.

:lol:

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Eh, Scemantics. As I follow posts, I sometimes forget the flow as I absorb the most recent and respond. Walt was 100% correct, but it didn't contradict the jist of what Sable had said. So, I responded, which probably derailed the intent of the thread and what Sable had said. However, Sable's response was even more disheartening, which... my knee jerk reaction.
I hate when someone gets bogged down in one word of what I've said, disregarding the message, so I am even more disheartened by my own... :::gulp::: scemantic gibberly gook.

I agree with what Sable said and Walt. Walt, was just adding to what Sable said from a pipemaker's perspective. I just got involved and threw a few punches, ha ha. The Irish in me just can't stand by without throwing a punch or two when the jaw is exposed and guard is down. The boxer in me... ::

 

[misterlowercase]

That's it!

:evil:

I'm quitting the forum.

 

[misterlowercase]

:P

 

[misterlowercase]

Both statements were correct.
There is no party at fault...
...except for me,

and my convoluted dense irrational ratiocination.

 

[misterlowercase]

Okay,

now I quit.

 

[misterlowercase]

...and I'm never coming back either!

 

[cosmicfolklore]

What the hell did you do, except put the thread back on track? You're going to have to try harder to be an asshole before you can quit the forum, mlc, ha ha!

 

[misterlowercase]

At this point,

I'm only padding my post count...