Bad experience with tongue bite

[bprivateaerdric]

There were other measurements mentioned, which confirm my admittedly casual attempt. I've not seen any measurement over 110F, which is cooler than my coffee.
I'm willing to believe that a hotter fire produces different chemicals in the smoke (mostly high alkaline substances as one citation mentioned). I am also willing to believe that some people are more sensitive to those chemicals than others, and that some tobaccos are more likely to produce those chemicals.
But I think the heat, steam, and/or condensation producing an actual heat burn theories are refuted by the measurements.
I'm willing to look at other measurements. I've been wrong before.
So far, judging by methods detailed here, I smoke much slower than some who never get bite. But the length of my draw, the 10-15 seconds the smoke might be in my mouth, certainly gives it more time to react chemically. Having stopped that, I have not yet had any hint of bite except in some "Virginia" tobacco. Interestingly, it was on the first puffs to light the pipe, so heat was not an issue.
I imagine it is similar to how I can eat really high scoville peppers which would seriously burn other people. There's no difference in my method of eating, it's just the chemicals and my body's reaction.
For the record, I am now smoking 4 pipes a day with no problem. Well, except for one funny thing. I can no longer make the squeaky, kissy noise with my lips. I use it to call the squirrels when I put out peanuts, and since that one bad reaction I have been unable to do it. I make a little hissing noise instead. Weird.

 

[pipesmokingtom]

I haven't gotten tongue bite in a loooong time, but it happened to me last night. I tried a sample of Hal O the Wynd, and for whatever reason, it bit me. It's not a lasting pain or anything, but I felt it even this morning when I woke up. Gone now.
What I realized is that it has Red Virginia, and to the best of my recollection, I don't think I've ever smoked a blend with Red Virginia. I may be in that club that can't smoke it... time will tell, I guess.

 

[jvnshr]

I'm willing to believe that a hotter fire produces different chemicals in the smoke (mostly high alkaline substances as one citation mentioned). I am also willing to believe that some people are more sensitive to those chemicals than others, and that some tobaccos are more likely to produce those chemicals.

I totally agree with that idea. What I don't agree is, chemical and heat burn being considered as the same thing. Whether you are smoking hot or not, a tobacco can give you a tongue bite (cramps and kind of feeling that there are thousands of needles on your tongue). Mac Baren's Plumcake gives me a crazy tongue bit for instance even if I smoke it very slowly. Higher temperature on the other hand, can cause either tongue bite or tongue burn IMHO. Here are some explanations from the article mentioned before by bprivateaerdric that describes what I am trying to say in a more accurate way:

...When smoke from tobacco has a higher degree of alkalinity, it will produce painful irritation of

the tongue, regardless of its temperature. A principal cause of alkaline smoke is a tobacco

containing little or no sugar, such as Burley... Virginias and other tobaccos with high sugar content generally

produce an acidic smoke, which is easier on the mucous membranes and tongue. However, if

combustion temperature goes too high, then the hydrocarbons (especially sugars) join with

oxygen to form water and turn neutral, thus leaving the alkaline components to predominate in

the smoke. This simply means when this type of tongue bite occurs, it is the result of a chemical reaction; it

has nothing to do with heat or the temperature of the smoke. Even if you were to freeze the

smoke and make it ice cold, the high alkalinity could still produce a chemical irritation.

...Recent studies indicate that the painful phenomenon may also have to do with the individual's taste

buds. Apparently, heat opens sensitive channels and pores in taste buds, making them more

vulnerable to painful sensations... the causes of tongue bite seem to be pretty straight

forward. Tongue bite generally results from either a chemical burn or heat scald (or both)...

What I don't agree in this article is:

studies have demonstrated that the smoke generally arrives at the mouth with a temperature of

88 to 108 degrees Fahrenheit, which is normal body temperature plus or minus 10 degrees

Fahrenheit. This temperature doesn't even come close to an average cup of coffee at 140

degrees Fahrenheit and higher, which normally doesn't scald the tongue even at that

temperature.

140F is not scalding your tongue? Whatever burns (not the feeling, but the damage) your skin, will burn (damage) your tongue. Saliva on the tongue may decrease the initial contact temperature and your tongue or mouth can handle 140F temperature, however it doesn't mean that it won't injure your tongue. A five minute exposure of water with 120 degrees will result in third-degree burns.

I've not seen any measurement over 110F, which is cooler than my coffee.

A smoke with 110F temperature applied to your tongue for 30 minutes, you can guess what's going to happen.

 

[jvnshr]

Jvn- I doubt that water condenses out of the smoke stream onto our tongues. (But not sure either way.)

Some will condense inside the stem, some on our tongue and some will still stay in the smoke. Take a puff from your pipe and blow it through a disposable paper napkin. Don't hate me for what you will see though

 

[bprivateaerdric]

You may have misunderstood. It says it is NOT at or near 140ºF. Usually it is below 98.6ºF, in other words, cooler than body temp.
And no one applies 110ºF smoke to their mouth for 30 minutes. Even if someone puffed constantly for 30 minutes, half of that time would be blowing out. There may be two types of damage that is done, but I don't see any evidence for a burn by heat.
Or maybe you are confusing 110ºF with the hotter than boiling 110ºC

 

[jvnshr]

You may have misunderstood. It says it is NOT at or near 140ºF. Usually it is below 98.6ºF, in other words, cooler than body temp.

It says:

This temperature doesn't even come close to an average cup of coffee at 140

degrees Fahrenheit and higher, which normally doesn't scald the tongue even at that

temperature.

I understood it as "80-108F doesn't even come close to an average cup of coffee at 140 degrees Fahrenheit and higher, which normally doesn't scald the tongue even at that temperature.". The sentence ends with even at that temperature. He claims that 108F will do nothing to the tongue, wherever 140F even won't scald the tongue.

And no one applies 110ºF smoke to their mouth for 30 minutes.

I usually smoke a pipe for 1.5-2 hours. Taking this into consideration I took 1/4 of the smoking time (thus 30 minutes) as the period that the smoke is applied to the mouth.

Or maybe you are confusing 110ºF with the hotter than boiling 110ºC

I took this one as a joke
I am not going to discuss anymore, because obviously we have no real evidences or experiment results on our hands. The only thing I'm sure that whenever I start puffing faster than normal, my pipe gets hotter, the stem gets warmer and the temperature inside my mouth increases, I can feel that heat and torch sensation on my tongue which is totally different than the chemical tongue bite.

 

[bprivateaerdric]

We do have measurements, but obviously we need better measurements. So far the measurements say you can't get an actual heat burn from even enthusiastic normal smoking. You seem to draw one second for every three seconds of not drawing, but I can't do that.
I don't mind discussing things logically, with the evidence we do have or any new evidence. I would love to be proven wrong.
My last comment was not a joke, but an acknowledgement that cultures are different and misunderstandings can result.

 

[jvnshr]

So far the measurements say you can't get an actual heat burn from even enthusiastic normal smoking.

I still support the idea of 110F (43C) causing a heat burn (damage) on the tongue (if that's the measured temperature of a pipe tobacco smoke).

My last comment was not a joke, but an acknowledgement that cultures are different and misunderstandings can result.

I took that one as a joke because it could either has been a joke or some kind of suggestion that I was silly enough not to distinguish Fahrenheit from Celsius. There was actually enough evidence in one of my previous posts proving that I was aware of both scales. Here it is:

Are we sure about that? Our tongues can handle 40C (104F) while our hands can handle up to 60C (140F)

 

[bprivateaerdric]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18226454

 

[jvnshr]

bprivateaerdric, I think I cannot explain myself well enough so you can understand. The heat pain threshold of the tongue is around 46C, however your tongue can easily be damaged (burned) if the heat with 44C temperature is applied to it for a longer time. Your tongue will warn you if the thing you touch instantly burns you, if it's not warning you it doesn't mean that you are good to go. Also, while drinking a coffee you usually take a sip with some air which lowers the temperature of the fluid. Try drinking coffee like you are drinking water, you will feel a little pain, it won't bother you that much, but as I said earlier, your tongue will still be damaged. And let's not forget that you finish your coffee in a few minutes however your pipe in an hour or so. Try drinking a coffee at 140F for an hour, you will get a tongue burn. Liquid with 140F temperature needs 3 seconds to scald your tongue. You may not feel the pain instantly, but the tissue will be damaged. And you will feel the pain when body starts to recover the scalded skin.
Long story short, I don't say that it is only the heat from the smoke that damages your tongue. There could be other reasons as well, like the ones I've stated above, it might be the heat exchange that happens while the water in the smoke condenses or it might be the heat damaging the coating of the tongue causing chemicals to attack your tongue easily thus resulting in pain.
Links:
http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/E-Book/injuries/thermal-injuries
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/expphysiol.1943.sp000875/abstract
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.3758%2FBF03198847.pdf

 

[bprivateaerdric]

Perhaps you are right, but I know I have sat in a sauna of 140ºF for more than a half an hour, talking, breathing, and touching 140ºF air continuously without a burn. Some folks like it even hotter. And I am the guy who keeps putting water on the rocks, so there's lots of live steam.
But have it your way, I will look for detailed data as things go forward.

 

[yaddy306]

your tongue can easily be damaged (burned) if the heat with 44C temperature is applied to it for a longer time.

The temperature in Las Vegas today is 40 degrees. Should the residents there stop breathing to prevent lung burns?

 

[fitzy]

I will quote myself

Wow WAY too much over thinking going on here.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

Jvnshr:

my pipe gets hotter, the stem gets warmer and the temperature inside my mouth increases, I can feel that heat and torch sensation on my tongue which is totally different than the chemical tongue bite.

I bet a Churchwarden would help in that situation.

It's not hard to feel a difference in temperature when smoking a pipe, especially if you have a short stem with a loose draw. The first time I smoked a Missouri Meerschaum with their very open plastic stems I was very surprised at the temperature difference.

If anyone does a side by side test between a Churchwarden and a stock Cob with a short stem it will be obvious that stem length does make a difference in temperature.
However, attributing tongue bite to the temperature itself is probably still wrong. I've had horrible tongue bite while smoking a Churchwarden at -15C ambient temperature, you even get ice build up on the stem from your breath.
This is a situation of "Correlation not Causation".

Temperature is not the "cause" of tongue bite, but it should still affect tongue bite.

If we're talking about a chemical reaction then higher temperatures will still make a difference. When I de-tarnish a piece of silver with aluminum and baking soda in water (which removes the Sulpher atoms out of the Silver with electrolysis). The electrochemical properties exist at almost any temperature, but if it's hot the process works exponentially faster. In that case the difference between "very warm" and "unbearably hot" is drastic.

Everyone knows that cleaning agents work better when they're hot. That might actually be a more direct example that it seems given that most household cleaners use excessively high PH to clean, and one of the base ingredients for soap is made from Ash after all.
The big question in my mind is just how much can be attributed to the PH balance specifically and how much is from all the other chemicals in the mix (which probably varies greatly from blend to blend).

 

[bprivateaerdric]

Yes, one of the links posted early in this thread discusses the chemical difference between the burn products of a cool pipe vs a hot pipe. I don't think that's under contention.
The discussion seems to be whether a 90-110ºF smoke stream will physically burn you like fire does, when 140ºF coffee (or 140ºF sauna air or 107ºF Las Vegas air) does not.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Krikey, it's not that difficult. Someone asked us for advice and then started with the damned mathematics to disregard the answers. I would get tongue burn if I puffed a pipe, so I slow smoke my pipe, and I dry my tobacco. That's the answer I find for myself, besides, in growing up with pipesmokers and living around them, if I saw someone puffing or blowing large clouds of smoke, I'd spot them as a newbie. Watching pipesmokers, I barely ever see smoke, men who have smoked pipes for longer than I have been around.

Now, some may have different responses, and you may not want to smoke if you can't puff. Sure, do what you want. Screw the math, steam burns me, if it doesn't burn you, then keep doing it. It's not my tongue, nor me looking like a newbie. You have our permission to do what you want. However, you asked for advice, we gave it. This has been the answer for the last 500 times the very same question has been posted, slow, sip, and dry. If you wish to disregard this, then that is perfectly fine. But, you asked...

 

[deathmetal]

Watching pipesmokers, I barely ever see smoke, men who have smoked pipes for longer than I have been around.

As I got better at this, this became what happened as well. The big clouds of smoke happen when you light, but after that, you are just breathing with the pipe, and every now and then a little ring unravels out of it, but really there is no puffing, only keeping the draw steady. I think the mouth absorbs more nicotine this way, so once I learned that, I switched over immediately.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Yep, blowing smoke into the air is a waste of nicotine goodness. ::

 

[bprivateaerdric]

Michael, since I didn't disregard the answer, I don't know you you say I did. Also, I don't mind looking like a newbie since I am. Was that supposed to be an insult?
But that doesn't mean that 100ºF smoke can burn you, and I do smoke slow and cool, and was when I got tongue bite. If you had read you would see that I followed the sound advice and found my problem.
Even a newbie can spot a mythology (they may be even better suited to do so). They don't have to believe it though. Thanks for being so welcoming.

 

[balkisobrains]

Water vapor is not always steam or super-heated steam. Steam from boiling water at atmospheric pressure is probably going to burn your skin if you shoot it right onto yourself. Water vapor may, or may not, depending how hot it is. The best thing to do is avoid as much moisture as necessary to still get a flavorful smoke, and keep the burn temps in the bowl to the same necessary minimums. Smoking with a lot of side-stream also helps me to find flavor and to cool the incoming smoke. Most of the time I probably draw in 1/3 pipe smoke and simultaneously 2/3 air from around the sides of the bit during a draw. :puffpipe: