Astley Pipes = Re-Stamped Estate Pipes (Photos)

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cigrmaster

Lifer
May 26, 2012
20,249
57,280
66
Sarasota Florida
waluljan, I am not going to the German board as I do not speak the language. The link you showed shows two pipes with very similar shapes. I only see a 1/4 of the pipe on the left with no shot of the stem, if you are intimating that because the shapes look the same, that they are the exact same pipe then your detective skills are lacking, I have seen that shape before on other pipes. I honestly could care less about this whole thing because I would never do business with that seller again since there is so much out there pointing to him being a crook.

 

daveinlax

Charter Member
May 5, 2009
2,001
2,712
WISCONSIN
When all is said and done, I find this to be much ado about little.

Yeah but the pipe world is pretty small and this has been a topic among collectors for years. These misrepresented pipes will be floating around for unsuspecting suckers for years. Not to mention the NOS BS he's been peddlin'.

The link you showed shows two pipes with very similar shapes. I only see a 1/4 of the pipe on the left with no shot of the stem, if you are intimating that because the shapes look the same, that they are the exact same pipe then your detective skills are lacking

Look at the blast. It's the same pipe. I would like to inspect the shank with a loupe. I'll bet there's a faint crack.8O

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
606
When all is said and done, I find this to be much ado about little.
Knowingly selling pipes as having been made by prominent English makers for Astley, when in fact they are no-name estate pipes that were recently refurbished, is fraud, which happens to be illegal. The proof on the Ashton-made "Astley" referenced here, to my eyes, is rock-solid. The blast pattern is exactly the same. It was bought and sold by the same ebay account (James Upshall Co.). No one would sue over a $100 pipe, but men have been hung on less evidence.
As for the Charatan (or "Charatan") listed above, you would have to look closer at more of the different pictures and be able to see the buyer and seller as being the same (which isn't clear from the photos posted).
BTW, you should see what that account has been buying this past week or two -- unsmoked no-name estates, unfinished stummels (sans stems), two Don Florian pipes with great grain, etc. Maybe the holder of the jamesupshallco account likes crappy estate pipes, but it looks like something else to me.

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
606
Wait...are we talking about 'jamesupshallco' or 'jamesupshallpipeco'? The 'jamesupshallpipeco' is Ezrati's eBay site. If someone is buying scrap under the eBay account 'jamesupshallco', the use of THAT handle is suspicious.
Sorry, coalsmoke, it's jamesupshallpipeco that I'm talking about and that the German fellow was talking about. Apparently he's been watching the buying and selling patterns of that handle and noticed that many of the estates (no-names, Baris, Savinellis, etc.) return as reborn Astleys and Ashtons. What made him initially suspicious, he says, is that all of these Astley pipes started appearing on the market and that many of them were drastically different in terms of style than any of the Astleys he had been accustomed to seeing before. Now, I don't think he has photographic/screen shot evidence for every single instance of this happening, but the Ashton-made Astley (sandblasted pot) discussed here is difficult to explain away. That example, to me, is devastating to the company's credibility unless there is an innocent explanation. There may be such an explanation, but I can't think of one (and I wasn't suspicious at all until I saw the Ashton/Astley pot photos).
Again, what would Ezrati gain by selling junk? Certainly no big bucks...His 100% feedback on his eBay site and the thousands of pipes sold is what he would lose. I can't see the motive behind this if it IS indeed Ezrati behind the sale of cheap knock-offs.
Big bucks can indeed be made by doing what's been alleged. If you were to clean up a no-name Danish freehand, for example, and stamp it "James Upshall," you could sell it for hundreds of dollars.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTRA-LARGE-1985-JAMES-UPSHALL-HIGH-GRADE-G-FREEHAND-DANISH-STYLE-BRIAR-MINT-NR-/400539227501?
Is that the case with this pipe? Obviously I don't know, but the styling looks Danish to me, not like that of Barry Jones. And the stamping is CRISP and clean. I wouldn't think of buying it just for those reasons. Regardless, if the company has been doing what the German has alleged, clearly it could be profitable.

 

waluljan

Lurker
Aug 16, 2013
12
0
As for the Charatan (or "Charatan") listed above, you would have to look closer at more of the different pictures and be able to see the buyer and seller as being the same (which isn't clear from the photos posted).
On the other picture in the german board ( http://www.imgbox.de/users/public/images/dUk1MLvsVe.png) you can see the whole ebay data: seller, item ID etc. You

can check using the item ID, who's the buyer: http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=251085458987
I'd guess, this so called Charatan's early years are quite clear, it's less noble ancestry too.
_____
Greetings Waluljan

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
606
11683 -- yep, that's the feedback total for jamesupshallpipeco on ebay.
And here's a screenshot of the feedback left for the seller of the estate. It's jamesupshallpipeco alright.
astley-charatan-estate-600x170.jpg


http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=carol_3101&iid=251085458987&de=off&items=25&interval=0&mPg=57&page=8

 

rebornbriar

Starting to Get Obsessed
Aug 21, 2013
250
1
United Kingdom
I have just joined pipesmagazine after doing a Google search on this topic and finding this post. I also read the accusations on pipedia.org on the Fribourg & Treyer page, but when trying to find it again, the article has been amended on 14 August removing the accusation, but if you haven't sen the original yet, Google have a copy of it in their cache
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PVateS3ZYO8J:www.pipedia.org/wiki/Fribourg_%2526_Treyer+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
As an estate pipe seller on eBay, I rely on the site to make a substantial part of my living and anything that has the potential to bring further harm to the marketplace as a whole is worrying, especially something of this magnitude.
I have to say that I have had my suspicions for a long time about Mr Ezrati, but I have not had the time to dig deeply into his eBay dealings. The sheer volume of old pipes that he buys is bewildering. A while ago, he won one of my auctions. On receipt of the pipe he contacted me to ask for a refund. Perhaps the pipe was not suitable for re-branding?
Anyway, I took my opportunity to reply to his eBay message and asked about the volume of pipes he purchased and what he did with them. I was thinking at the time if there was any opportunity for me to pick some up. His reply was that he had many of them restored by "Mr Jones" and re-sold them, and others were used to practice on in the workshop. As he knew what I did for a living, he also said that "Mr Jones" would be retiring soon and he would be looking for a good repairer.
Now this raised my suspicions. If he had the pipes restored and re-sold them, where was he selling them? eBay is his only outlet and he certainly wasn't re-selling them there - at least in the guise in which he had bought them. Also, why would a craftsman with the high reputation of Barry Jones, need old estate pipes to practice on, especially if no new pipes were being produced in the workshop.
He is also fairly astute in trying to cloak things. Although he originally contacted me through the eBay messaging system, he did not reply to my question there, but instead sent me an email, so there would be no record of the conversation on eBay servers. Also, as soon as a pipe is sold, he removes all the pictures from the auction, the only one remaining being the small eBay picture. So it is impossible to look at any of his sold items and see the close up pictures.
There is certainly a lot of smoke, but I feel the fire is only starting to emerge.

 

ssjones

Moderator
Staff member
May 11, 2011
18,444
11,353
Maryland
postimg.cc
Thank you Rebornbriar for sharing your insights and experience. This whole thing now makes me very sad.

Welcome by the way! I do follow your Ebay auctions and you always have some quality and interesting offerings.

 

flakyjakey

Lifer
Aug 21, 2013
1,117
7
I joined pipesmagazine today specifically because of the 'Astley/Upshall' issue. I have smoked pipes since 2000, and more recently have been collecting high-end English pipes, mostly from Ebay auctions and sales. I have about fifty pipes, all of which I smoke. Amongst these are two Upshall P grades, one G grade and one E grade, all bought through Ebay. They are carved from fine briar, have the same "look" and appropriate stampings. I suspect they were made by the same craftsman (hopefully Barry Jones). They are all a joy to smoke. I also bought a couple of 'Astleys' from the same source. One was an octagonal half-warden, purportedly made for Astley by Dunhill, but it looks Danish and unlike any other Dunhill I have seen. Am I bothered? Not for myself - it cost me £70, smokes like a dream and is lighter than any other of my pipes.
I am however concerned about the example shown on the German website. To my relatively untutored, but diagnostically-sharp, eye the grains appear identical (like a finger print?). If this pipe has been doctored from a non-Ashton pipe and sold as an 'Ashton Made' pipe for financial gain (why do it otherwise?) surely that constitutes fraud? Which leaves me with two final thoughts. Firstly, if Reborn Briar is correct, Mr Jones is frittering away his pre-eminent pipe-carving expertise by 'tarting up old tat'. Why is he not training apprentices in this most noble of English crafts? Secondly, when word of this spreads (and it is likely to do so) it will inhibit consumers like me from buying on Ebay, and by besmirching the pipe restoring industry as a whole could damage the livelihoods of reputable members of the fraternity.
Would I now buy another 'Astley' from Upshall's - no! Might I buy another properly stamped 'James Upshall' of characteristic appearance? - possibly. If I had an estate pipe restoration business, would I report the issue to Ebay? - certainly. Would I then, with like-minded colleagues, seek out clear evidence of fraud and if it was found proceed with further action? - Yes I would.

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
606
Thank you Rebornbriar for sharing your insights and experience. This whole thing now makes me very sad.

Welcome by the way!
I'll second that. Welcome to the forums! And I agree with Al, this whole thing is very sad indeed. Is "Mr. Jones" really toiling away turning no-name Danish dross into Astley gold? It sounds like something out of a fairy tale or a Gothic novel. Truly bizarre.

 

rebornbriar

Starting to Get Obsessed
Aug 21, 2013
250
1
United Kingdom
Thank you for the welcome. Unfortunately time constraints prevent me from visiting or contributing to forums on a regular basis. I wish I could devote more time to doing so.
I have had to take time out of my schedule to look more closely at what is going on, and what I have uncovered is at least suspicious and at most disturbing. I hope it will be worthwhile pursuing this for the sake of PROTECTING both the marketplace and unsuspecting buyers. I think we have to bear in mind that the practice is till continuing and will continue to do so as long as Ezrati is selling pipes. I therefore think that as pipe smokers, we have a responsibility to become involved in this issue to protect future fellow smokers who are unwittingly buying these pipes from their hard earned money.
Through this practice, he is not only besmirching the good name of Astley, but also that of Dunhill, Charatan, the Late Bill Taylor, Barry Jones, Colin Fromm, Ferndown and Les Wood - all that is great in the British pipe making industry. That is how deep this runs! He is using all these names in his descriptions and this is another reason why the pipe smoking community in general need to become involved, to bring a swift end to this practice. What direct action that can be taken is another matter. In the UK it is more likely to have action taken as a result from a complaint by a consumer.
I have brought Les Wood's name into this because of the suspicious silver work on the pipes. Please note that in no way am I implicating Les in any suspicious activity. After all, Les did all the silver work for Upshall, so if Ezrati sends him a batch of pipes and asks for silver bands or other silver decorations to be added, Les will oblige. There is a legal issue though with this silver work which I will go on to explain. This is what has again raised my suspicions in the sales I can find on the eBay system that are either currently for sale or have been sold recently in the limited time-scale that eBay allow us to look back to.
Firstly I would like to talk about the legal implcations of hallmarking in the UK. I have substantial experience in this area as my partner and I were previously involved in the jewellery trade. Hallmarks in the UK date back to 1558, so this is nothing new! It is a legal requirement that every single piece of precious metal (silver, gold or platinum)that is sold in the UK, requires an official hallmark which consists of a makers/sellers mark as well as the official Assay Office marks. We have our own seller/maker mark. Every one of these marks in the UK must be unique, and registered with the Assay Office. What this requires is that every piece of silver decoration MUST be sent to an offial Assay office, where the metal is scraped and chemically tested for its purity. It is then officially stamped by the Assay office with the symbol of the office that did the assay test, the symbol for the purity of the metal, and a date letter signifying when the piece was tested. Each piece of metal is independently tested and stamped which is why a pipe with a silver spigot, tenon and bowl cap will have an official hallmark on each piece. To sell anything in the UK which has precious metal content, without that being officially assay tested is illegal.
I can understand why Les Wood does not assay his silver work. Items that are being exported from the UK do not need to be assay tested and in many countries, like the USA, assay testing is not a legal requirement. Les Wood exports his Ferndown pipes to the USA and his Elwood pipes to Europe, mostly Germany - so official assay testing of the silver is not required. Similarly, if he fits a silver band, the cost of sending an item like this off for testing and hallmarking would eat out a large part of his profit. However, if the item is then being sold in the UK like the mysterious Dunhill Astley pipes with LJS silver bands, then it is the reponsibility of the seller to have the silver assay tested and hallmarked, which Ezrati is clearly not doing.
This raises another question. Ezrati is keen to hail many of the pipes as being made by the Dunhill company and fitted with factory-fitted Les Wood silver bands stamped LJS - linking the fact that Les was silversmith at the Dunhill factory. However, show me a Dunhill pipe anywhere in the world with a factory fitted band that is stamped LJS. They don't exist. Dunhill were perfectly aware of their legal obligations in this respect and all their factory fitted silver bands are stamped AD and officially assay tested and hallmarked as required of a manufacturer and retailer in the UK. It seems quite clear that these bands were not factory fitted, but were an after market addition to lend kudos to the pipe on offer, as being an "official" Dunhill product. In fact one of the pipes he was claiming had a Dunhill factory fitted silver band stamped LJS was covering half of the nomenclature on the shank of the pipe! Even more worrying is THIS PIPE which he claims to be a Dunhill but the silver is only stamped SILVER 925. A 925 stamp is not even a recognised mark in the UK so there is no way Dunhill would send out such items. Making these claims, and selling silver clad pipes not properly assay tested and hallmarked are both breaches of Trading Standards regulations. Even claiming a pipe is from a particular year without documentary evidence to back it up is a breach of the regulations, whether done knowingly or not.
However, Trading Standards are only likely to take action on receiving a complaint or notification from a consumer - and not from another trader.
Other anomolies are the 9mm filter pipes. This one is a "Dunhill from 1986" yet has a 9mm filter fitting. I was not aware of Dunhill making 9mm filter pipes in the 1980's, especially for a UK retailer! Likewise, this very Danish looking Bill Taylor "Ashton" from 1985 is also fitted with a 9mm filter. Something a UK pipe maker would not do as a matter of course for a UK retailer. 9mm filter pipes are normally bound for and retrieved from the German market.
These are just a few goings on that I have uncovered today. I am sure as time goes on, more examples like that discovered on the German forum linking pipe purchase to pipe sale will emerge. This practice exceeds the boundaries of Trading Standards and constitutes fraud. A matter which would be investigated by the Police and dealt with through the courts and criminal justice system.
If anyone has any further suspicions or evidence of wrong doing, please make the community aware of it or even send me a PM. Hopefully together we can clear up this mess.

 

ssjones

Moderator
Staff member
May 11, 2011
18,444
11,353
Maryland
postimg.cc
Reborn Briar: Thanks for taking the time to share your asute observations and pipe knowledge. It's shame we have to use this topic to learn of your expertise. I hope you will be able to contribute to the forum on more pleasant topics.
Flakeyjakey: I welcome another James Upshall collector to the forum. Vintage Upshalls are really fine pipes. We have a "show us your Upshalls" thread here, I'd love to see your collection pieces.

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
606
Thanks, again, rebornbriar, for adding to this discussion. The links you give link back to the other Astley thread, not to the pipes you mention, but they are easy enough to find on ebay.
I also find it interesting that the Pipes Forum That Shall Remain Nameless has a thread discussing this same topic. I'm not surprised that there is such a thread, but I'm truly surprised that the moderators haven't deleted it. That the Other Forum is allowing this topic to be discussed is significant in its own right.
BTW, the person who removed the text from Pipedia regarding this topic is anonymous. Only the IP address was given.

 

mattm

Lurker
Aug 22, 2013
7
0
Wow, I'm a real newbie to this hobby and only own two pipes. I nearly bought a pipe from this guy at the weekend, it was my birth year pipe and it was my birthday at the weekend so I was very tempted as you can imagine. Glad I didnt bid now. Thank god for communities like this where all of your vast knowledge can come together in one place! It's great for newbies like me!

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
606
Welcome, mattm. You've stumbled upon a smelly little mess in the hobby and in the estate market. I hope this kind of thing doesn't turn you off from what is otherwise a fun and rewarding pastime. There are many reputable pipe dealers on ebay, some of them regular contributors to these and other forums.
Again, welcome! Hope you stick around.

 
Aug 1, 2012
4,604
5,161
@sam Really interesting that he is bidding on those 2 pipes. I hope they don't show back up but the worry is there.

 

pitchfork

Lifer
May 25, 2012
4,030
606
Hi, peterpiper. Welcome.
I saw that as well. I understand there are certain rules at the UK forum that don't apply here, but the words "junk" and "disappointment" are mystifying (to me anyway). We're well beyond the realm of speculation or "naming and shaming." There is firm evidence indicating that old estates have been tarted up, however skillfully, as "Astley" pipes. I think many here agree it is worth discussing and airing in the open -- at least for the sake of unsuspecting buyers.
Apparently questions and suspicions about this topic had been raised in the past from different corners, but the German fellow who followed the purchases and sales of the Upshall ebay handle has what looks to be rock-solid proof that something is amiss. Frankly, I understand people's reluctance to talk about this in case it turns out to be a misunderstanding and ruins someone's reputation, but the evidence on at least two pipes is very clear. To claim that various pipes were made by Charatan or by Bill Taylor cannot be a mere accident or mix-up.

 

cigrmaster

Lifer
May 26, 2012
20,249
57,280
66
Sarasota Florida
No surprise the thread was closed at SF, they have a history of protecting known scumbags and thieves. No matter what kind of evidence is presented or discussed, the mods there will not allow for any discussions of this type.
I sent an email to the owner of the Upshall company asking for my money back for the Astley I purchased last July and here is his response.
" Dear Sir,

I was surprised to receive your E-bay message, especially after you have had and enjoyed the pipe you bought for over a year. Just for your information, for many years the Astley Pipe Company have purchased all its pipes from various manufacturers, Comoy, GBD in the early years, Dunhill, Charatan, Ashton, James Upshall and Ferndown to name a few. Most of the pipes were finished by the various manufacturers unless Mr Bentley asked for a specific shape or finish. The pipe you purchased was definitely a Dunhill made Astley with a rusticated finish. When I purchased the James Upshall Pipe Company in 1996 I continued to supply Mr Bentley of the Astley Pipe shop with over 50% of his pipes. The rest were made up of the above mentioned manufacturers. I later purchased the Astley of Jermyn Street Pipe Company from Mr Bentley, and received all stock he had, some 2,500 pre-smoked pipes and 3,000 new pipes. When questions were raised on forums in the past, regarding the date of manufacture by pipe smokers who had no knowledge of the pipe business, I have always answered all queries and the forum administrators control the dialogue to ensure factual basis for all threads. Removing any which were slanderous. If something has gone wrong with the pipe you have purchased I will be more than happy to offer an exchange as all Astley pipes comes with a guarantee. However, the question which has arisen from your message is why have you decided you no longer liked the pipe after smoking it for over a year?

Both the Upshall and Astley pipe companies are registered with Company House and are run with customer service and honesty as prime objectives. We have no cause to fabricate any pipe origins as we have a full stock of all our pipe ranges. Lastly, I would appreciate if you could forward details of the forums or any persons spreading this false information. Await hearing from you. M Ezrati Managing Director"

 

mattm

Lurker
Aug 22, 2013
7
0
Thanks for the warm welcome. Glad I dodged a bullet! I'll be following this thread with interest :)

 
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