Astley Pipes = Re-Stamped Estate Pipes (Photos)

[flakyjakey]

I see that there is an jamesupshallpipeco eBay auction on a "1985 William Ashton Taylor Made Astley" in 14 hrs time. This got me to thinking. Rebornbriar listed a number of pipe makers whose names have been linked to "Astley" pipes allegedly re-engineered from "tat" estate pipes, either no-names or names other than that specified in Upshalls description of the pipe at sale.
Not all of these makers are still operating, but Dunhill and others are. Surely the latter would not be happy for their elite brand names to be used in this way? It would tend to besmirch their own reputations. Are they aware of what has been uncovered. and the serious concerns voiced by members of the pipe smoking and pipe restoring communities? Maybe they should be told? If they could confirm, for example, that an Upshall "Astley" sold as having been made by them had not been made/supplied by them it seems that this would provide another strand of "proof" of malpractice.

 

[guhrillastile]

Cigrmaster- You did leave him a link, correct?

 

[pitchfork]

As far as Rob Cooper ( coopersark ) and what was called his BS descriptions…. Well Rob sells for clients. His job is to get the maximum amount of dollars for his clients, as well as help himself with his fees. Does he offer sexy and exciting descriptions which enhance what he is selling? Damn rights he does.

I'll respond at more length later, but I admire Rob's salesmanship and his way with words -- I think I pointed out, as you did, that he's very good at what was referred to tongue-in-cheek as "BS." No offense intended whatsoever. I bought a pipe from Rob just a few weeks ago -- ON EBAY. So, I apologise if it came across as a criticism.
My point was to differentiate "BS" or sexy copy from dishonesty or fraud, and to draw a distinction between honest sellers like coopersark (and briar blues!) and the kinds of things being described in this thread. Hope this helps.

 

[waluljan]

I asked the fellow, who found it out, for "material", because of the "wonky" proofs ;-) Maybe this brings some cloudlessness, the

whole auction from a well known pipe seller "cologne-pipes" you can find here:
http://astley.lima-city.de/astley/mo16.html
The same pipe turned into an Astley's and sold, here:
http://astley.lima-city.de/astley/astley16.html
Or on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-WM-ASHTON-TAYLOR-MADE-ASTLEY-SANDBLASTED-POT-SITTER-BRIAR-PIPE-MINT-NR-/400538604186?nma=true&si=94GiON7IoWdZAR%252FzhgPF6MEBBmE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
The deleted pictures are here:
http://astley.lima-city.de/astley/astley16-1.JPG
http://astley.lima-city.de/astley/astley16-2.JPG
http://astley.lima-city.de/astley/astley16-3.JPG
The counting in the names "mo16" and "astley16" makes me suppose, there is more. However. Maybe it helps
______
Greetings Waluljan

 

[rebornbriar]

When you slam E-Bay, you also suggest that some well known, and highly respected sellers are not honest.

I'm entirely with you BB which is why I also came on to this thread initially. It is important to protect the integrity of the eBay system in general and for those who rely on it to make a living who are honest, dependable and professional sellers.

 

[rebornbriar]

Here are the pipe pictures one above the other.

 

[waluljan]

Remember the Astley’s trademark / brand name is owned by the seller in question. So legally he can stamp the name on anything he so chooses.

By the way, the guy in the German forum, who got the ball rolling, argued the same way! The owner of the brand can stamp the name even on his tooth brush or

toast. The owner has the exclusive power of defining, what Astley's is. But, extends this power into past? Can he subsequently make some junk from the past, what

evidentially never was an Astley's pipe, into one? Does trademark law really let one that extensively rebrand the past? I guess no. Even if you buy the whole Milwaukee

you can't buy bike wrecks and "rebrand" and sell them as vintage Harley-Davidson... But maybe I don't understand trademark law at all. ;-)

 

[pitchfork]

roth, all I could see of your post was this (screen name not showing):

but I knew it was your post, lol.

 

[cigrmaster]

guhrillastile, I most certainly did give him a link to this thread, let's see if he responds.

 

[rebornbriar]

BB - my comment wasn't relating to the integrity of eBay as as an organisation. We all know that they don't give a hoot about anything except collecting fees and maximising their profits.
It was more about protecting the ability of it as a sales platform, that will still allow sellers like those you mention to continue to use it as an outlet.
And I have always said what you also stated, if a buyer is not sure, or wants more information - ASK.

 

[waluljan]

I do not thing, somebody tried to blame eBay for this. Who's that dopey to blame the phone company for someones

obscene phone calls? However, we surely don't have an eBay discussion here. Maybe it's worth to be mentioned: this

is not eBays fault, not at all. And there is no rational reason to refuse eBay. But, it's just as good, as its sellers are.

Pretty poor awareness, but appeasing for me. I've bought many pipes this way - no flop, as far. On the other hand,

I'm afraid, eBay has no possible course of action. What should they do? Compare the pictures? Survey the apparent

authenticity? Read pipe boards to be after the thieves and rascals? Throw them out of the platform? There is no way

to handle this, beside the feedback given by us. I know, pretty banal. The case of faked Astley's & Upshalls remains.

 

[flakyjakey]

I agree with waluljan's obscene phone call analogy, but I believe a company has a "duty of care" to its customers/clients. This is why, in an earlier post, I asked if eBay had been made aware of this potential problem. I agree with others that they might not care anyway, but if they have not been contacted they could say that they "know nothing". If, however, they have been made aware, the alternative hypothetical analogy might be an otherwise reputable car dealer turning a blind eye when selling on a potentially dodgy car! eBay have the resources and much of the information necessary to solve this problem, with the result that Upshall could be absolved of any potential malpractice their reputation fully restored or that real malpractice might be identified.
Personally, I have nothing against eBay itself, having spent thousands of pounds on pipes in its auctions. I am fully aware that it can be a bit hit and miss, but I have bought many excellent pipes and only a couple of duds (and they had nothing to do with eBay). I generally bid on old English pipes and send them for expert restoration.

I will continue to do this, recognising that I may occasionally pick a wrong'n. However it seems to me that the "Upshall/Astley" business is potentially a very different matter which needs resolving for the benefit of all parties, including Upshall itself.

 

[jpberg]

So, Ezrati basically is Astley at this point, and Astley pipes were always made by others, it's not much of a stretch that any pipe that goes through his hands comes out as an Astley.
I understand that's a simplistic and naive statement, but isn't there the slightest bit of truth to it?

 

[jpberg]

Well, maybe. But surely it can't become a 1985 Astley made by Bill Taylor, can it?

No, of course not. That's beyond anyone's "gray area".

 

[waluljan]

Well, maybe. But surely it can't become a 1985 Astley made by Bill Taylor, can it?

Of course is the magic hand of the brand owner able to let a poor quality turn into a high grade pipe made by the best pipe makers...

Sorry, the whole story about the "product" isn't litigable. I can refill DrPepper into spray flacons and sell it to you with the

promise, it's hallowed tonic and makes your beard grow... Who cares about the truth? There are no limitations to the

narrative of the "products". Or do the people still believe, all the chicken in the world had a good life in Kentucky, in

a tiny ranch in the back of the garage of this nice KFC guy? Everybody can tell you his made up story. And the crazy

ones are the best, I think. Several people checked any Astley's catalogue and Astley's snipped, they could even find.

According to this reaserch, Astley's never sold rusticated pipes, extmpt from their "Rock Briar" line (half raw crude

briar). Most of this special "Astley's" we talk about are rusticated ones. No surprise there.
_________
>> Waluljan's Hallowed Beard Tonic - Order Now!

 

[hfearly]

So, Ezrati basically is Astley at this point, and Astley pipes were always made by others, it's not much of a stretch that any pipe that goes through his hands comes out as an Astley.
I understand that's a simplistic and naive statement, but isn't there the slightest bit of truth to it?

Maybe he should change his name to Midas, as his inept ability to turn poop into gold with a single touch of a finger surely dictates.

 

[ssjones]

According to this reaserch, Astley's never sold rusticated pipes, extmpt from their "Rock Briar" line (half raw crude

briar). Most of this special "Astley's" we talk about are rusticated ones. No surprise there.

Interesting, I did not know this.
Coincidentally, to this thread, I've been reading some back issues gifted to me of "The Pipe Smoker's Ephemeris". In one issue, from the year 2000, Rick Newcombe writes enthusiastically about the new owner of James Upshall pipes and predicts James Upshalls pipes will become wildly popular. I wonder what his sentiments are in 2013?

 

[rebornbriar]

Coincidentally, to this thread, I've been reading some back issues gifted to me of "The Pipe Smoker's Ephemeris". In one issue, from the year 2000, Rick Newcombe writes enthusiastically about the new owner of James Upshall pipes and predicts James Upshalls pipes will become wildly popular. I wonder what his sentiments are in 2013?

Al, it is a shame really. There is no doubting that Barry Jones is a superbly talented pipe craftsman, and the James Upshall pipes are of a very high quality. Nothing here would prevent me from adding Upshall pipes to my collection for those reasons. Flakeyjakey eluded earlier that it was a shame that he wasn't using the twilight of his career to train up new apprentices to carry on the great tradition of British hand made pipes into the future. I for one would have been delighted to have had an opportunity to learn this skill from one of the best.
Hopefully this issue can be cleared up one way or another.

 

[ssjones]

Mr. Newcombe is typically at the Richmond show. If so, I hope to try and get a few minutes with him on this subject. (He is like a rock star,so time isn't a given)

 

[pitchfork]

Yeah, I've read that Astley never sold rusticated pipes, either, but I wasn't sure how reliable that information was, so I never mentioned it here. The pictures and ebay purchase history were enough. Still, I have seen a few Astley catalogues and there are no rusticated pipes in them. That isn't conclusive evidence, though, as to whether they sold rusticated pipes or not, but it does raise the question for sure.
Here are two from the 1980s on Pipe Pages:
http://pipepages.com/ast1.htm

http://pipepages.com/astp1.htm