Are You Kidding Me?
- Thread starter toobfreak
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@Pipeman7- I'm not opining whether this is right or wrong, I'm just letting you know. Failure to comply with ANY instruction given to you by a flight crew member is a crime. If the gate agent asks the Flight Attendant to instruct you to do something, and the FA then does so, you are legally obligated to comply.
Beef,
I, like you I'm sure, have been flying commercially for over 4 decades now and have been a pilot for over 25 of those 40+ years.
Also, I, like you, read the "rules", but I must have missed something.
Couldn't find the "We have four employees that need to go to Louisville and this plane isn't leaving until four people give up their seats" rule!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/04/10/a-man-wouldnt-leave-an-overbooked-united-flight-so-he-was-dragged-off-battered-and-limp/?utm_term=.e8dd54e25880
I also missed the "You called me out on my bluff/intimidation/arrogance/incompetence so I'll get the cops to throw you off the plane' rules.
The arrogant UAL supervisor, though possibly thinking he has the "right" to "deem" things as he sees fit can't simply call a cantaloupe a watermelon and it pass any kind of scrutiny.
In the end the flight WAS NOT Overbooked. It was just fine until the ual folks decided to remove Paid in full ticketed customers from their "already occupied" seats.
Call it what you want brutha, but I ain't buyin it.
Arbitrary enforcement of rules/regs is one thing. Arbitrarily maken em up on the fly is another.
Finally, is your whole argument that the doctor "Inconvenienced" the other passengers!?!?!?
Really?
I, like you I'm sure, have been flying commercially for over 4 decades now and have been a pilot for over 25 of those 40+ years.
Also, I, like you, read the "rules", but I must have missed something.
Couldn't find the "We have four employees that need to go to Louisville and this plane isn't leaving until four people give up their seats" rule!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/04/10/a-man-wouldnt-leave-an-overbooked-united-flight-so-he-was-dragged-off-battered-and-limp/?utm_term=.e8dd54e25880
I also missed the "You called me out on my bluff/intimidation/arrogance/incompetence so I'll get the cops to throw you off the plane' rules.
The arrogant UAL supervisor, though possibly thinking he has the "right" to "deem" things as he sees fit can't simply call a cantaloupe a watermelon and it pass any kind of scrutiny.
In the end the flight WAS NOT Overbooked. It was just fine until the ual folks decided to remove Paid in full ticketed customers from their "already occupied" seats.
Call it what you want brutha, but I ain't buyin it.
Arbitrary enforcement of rules/regs is one thing. Arbitrarily maken em up on the fly is another.
Finally, is your whole argument that the doctor "Inconvenienced" the other passengers!?!?!?
Really?
I don't have the full story, and I don't think anyone who's posted to date has, either. That will hopefully change in the coming days.
I think the days of "bad PR" and "lack of customer service" putting a major airline out of business are long gone. The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, intended to stimulate competition, instead miserably backfired (like most do-gooder regulation) and led to the cattle-car clogged morass we get to enjoy today, now that all the majors are consolidated into "super carriers" that are "too big to fail". If the ADA '78 was meant to destroy wages for employees, blast compensation through the roof for about half a dozen company officers, and inconvenience the entire flying public, it worked like a charm.
I was about to say the same John. There are likely facts about this that thus far we are not privy to. It will all come out in the wash.
However I can't help but wonder why he was screaming like a child in the dentist's chair 8O
Regards,
Jay.
However I can't help but wonder why he was screaming like a child in the dentist's chair 8O
Regards,
Jay.
So here's the rule: It is a felony to not comply with all crew instructions. So yes - it was technically a crime when they said "get off" and he refused.
Counterpoint: They weren't removing him because they were overbooked. They were kicking off paying customers in order to accommodate themselves, i.e. four crew who needed to be somewhere else to crew another flight. That's not what the bumping rules were designed for.
What happens next in the real world? No prosecutor in the country prosecutes the Dr. He's free to move on. United will someday tally up the money and realize they probably spent $10 million give-or-take for four seats from Chicago to Kentucky. They'll pay him a bunch without much delay, and they'll pay through a short term knee-jerk reaction from the public who will book other airlines first. Then we will all forget about it and move on.
I'm at 33,000 miles flown so far this year, have been a pilot for 32 years, am an attorney for my day job, and grew up in an aviation family with a professional pilot father since before I was born.
Oh - and none of that matters. A 4th grader could have told United how to handle this.
Counterpoint: They weren't removing him because they were overbooked. They were kicking off paying customers in order to accommodate themselves, i.e. four crew who needed to be somewhere else to crew another flight. That's not what the bumping rules were designed for.
What happens next in the real world? No prosecutor in the country prosecutes the Dr. He's free to move on. United will someday tally up the money and realize they probably spent $10 million give-or-take for four seats from Chicago to Kentucky. They'll pay him a bunch without much delay, and they'll pay through a short term knee-jerk reaction from the public who will book other airlines first. Then we will all forget about it and move on.
I'm at 33,000 miles flown so far this year, have been a pilot for 32 years, am an attorney for my day job, and grew up in an aviation family with a professional pilot father since before I was born.
Oh - and none of that matters. A 4th grader could have told United how to handle this.
Jmatt,
I'm agreeing with you that ignoring / disobeying a crew members instruction is a felony. But if the order is itself fraudulent, or even illegal, is ignoring it still a criminal act?
On the lighter side of this, I came across.....
I'm agreeing with you that ignoring / disobeying a crew members instruction is a felony. But if the order is itself fraudulent, or even illegal, is ignoring it still a criminal act?
On the lighter side of this, I came across.....
A customer has a right to the services they purchased. Just as the airline has a right to timely and full payment, the customer has a right that every effort will be made within their control to provide the flight to the destination, on the date selected and to take reasonable steps to insure the passenger's safety.
Not be the ones who assault him.
The airline needed to find a /reasonable/ remedy. Offer more money, pick someone else.
Rather than being a dick, maybe the guy was just trying to take a long-overdue stand for what seems like increasingly unreasonable, invasive, abusive and unfair treatment from everyone you deal with anymore.
Going along with such bad treatment is acceptance of it. How would you like to hail a cab then along the way have the driver find a better fare and THROW YOU OUT ONTO THE STREET to take the other guy instead?
Fine print or no, I doubt anyone really agrees to potential assault just to fly home, but they need the flight. If United has so little respect for that customer to have him beat up and bodily thrown off just for taking his seat, then they have no more respect for you or me either. I won't fly under those terms.
Not be the ones who assault him.
The airline needed to find a /reasonable/ remedy. Offer more money, pick someone else.
Rather than being a dick, maybe the guy was just trying to take a long-overdue stand for what seems like increasingly unreasonable, invasive, abusive and unfair treatment from everyone you deal with anymore.
Going along with such bad treatment is acceptance of it. How would you like to hail a cab then along the way have the driver find a better fare and THROW YOU OUT ONTO THE STREET to take the other guy instead?
Fine print or no, I doubt anyone really agrees to potential assault just to fly home, but they need the flight. If United has so little respect for that customer to have him beat up and bodily thrown off just for taking his seat, then they have no more respect for you or me either. I won't fly under those terms.
Well that's the problem. You don't have the right to debate the appropriateness of the crew instructions. The correct Legal recourse is to obey the instructions, de-plane, the pursue whatever rights you believe you're entitled to. In the interest of safety, the plane's crew wins every time. At least for that moment. They can lose round two in either a real court (likely here) or in the court of public opinion (already demonstrated in this case today).
I've read this whole thread, which is pretty interesting to say the least. So my question is this. Is the pizza better in New York, Chicago, or San Francisco?
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