Are Dunhill pipes today as good as they used to be?

[georged]

But not the company logo. Listing them as Dunhills is false advertising.

Oh my. The horror...

I think you'll find that retail outfits are pretty careful about it.

As for resellers, they just want to communicate using widely understood terms.

It's nothing new.

And hardly newsworthy:










There were lots more but I ran out of room...

 

[PipeIT]

an inexpensive Preben Holm "reject" that I smoke all the time.

Oooh Preben!

I don’t remember if you posted this one before in WAYS?

Pic please?

Thanks

 

[Searock Fan]

I said I was not a Dunhill guy, but then I thought about it and that's only half true. I don't own any Dunhill pipes but I do have 2 Dunhill ashtrays, a lighter, a tamper and a wrist watch. So, maybe I'm a Dunhill guy after all.

 

[brian64]

Oh my. The horror...

I think you'll find that retail outfits are pretty careful about it.

As for resellers, they just want to communicate using widely understood terms.

It's nothing new.

And hardly newsworthy:



View attachment 172138
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There were lots more but I ran out of room...

Everybody knows George de Mastreal was actually given Velcro from the Roswell crash.

 

[Chasing Embers]

an inexpensive Preben Holm "reject" that I smoke all the time.

Frazorterets are great!

 

[craig61a]

But not the company logo. Listing them as Dunhills is false advertising.

 

[telescopes]

My youngest Dunhill is a 93. My earliest is a 48. They all smoke great and so do all the ones in between.

As far as differentiating The White Spit and Dunhill, if a friend were to say to me that they had a 2021 Dunhill, I can conceive of no instance where I would correct them.

 

[Terry Lennox]

The factory is still on St Andrew's Road.

There's a lot of great information at the link below. And don't miss the vintage TV ad in the embedded video!

Dunhill - Pipedia

pipedia.org

 

[Chasing Embers]

Missouri Meerschaum mascots?

 

[mingc]

Oh my. The horror...

I think you'll find that retail outfits are pretty careful about it.

As for resellers, they just want to communicate using widely understood terms.

It's nothing new.

And hardly newsworthy:



View attachment 172138
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View attachment 172140
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There were lots more but I ran out of room...

And it's only Existentialism if it comes from the Existentialist region of France. Otherwise, it's just sparkling anxiety. (This was stolen).

 

[georged]

And it's only Existentialism if it comes from the Existentialist region of France. Otherwise, it's just sparkling anxiety. (This was stolen).

You are bad.

You are very very bad...

 

[Val]

I was interested in finding the answer to this question and was able to speak directly with a couple long standing reputable shops in London who are in direct contact with the factory and on first name basis with the dunhill factory managers. they both said the same thing. This is what they said. “While the name has changed to Alfred dunhills the white spot, the pipes are made in the same exact factory with many long standing carvers and a few who have been there for 50 years who teach the new guys the same way of carving the dunhill pipes”. Apparently they even have a couple carvers that have been there since the late 60’s. I had these conversations back in 2019.

 

[georged]

I was interested in finding the answer to this question and was able to speak directly with a couple long standing reputable shops in London who are in direct contact with the factory and on first name basis with the dunhill factory managers. they both said the same thing. This is what they said. “While the name has changed to Alfred dunhills the white spot, the pipes are made in the same exact factory with many long standing carvers and a few who have been there for 50 years who teach the new guys the same way of carving the dunhill pipes”. Apparently they even have a couple carvers that have been there since the late 60’s. I had these conversations back in 2019.

It always looked to me like once the Accessories side of the biz swamped the pipes and tobaccos side revenue-wise, AND anything tobacco related was declared Categorically Evil by those whose mission in life is to tell other people what to do and how to live, the Dunhill board decided to separate the products to "keep the peace".

Now, the self-appointed Run Everyone Else's Life by Screeching At Them types won't have to subject their eyes to the word "tobacco" when dealing with Dunhill---it's nowhere to be found in their stores or literature---and people who like to smoke it in little briar & ebonite gadgets have their own secret name for that side of the company: White Spot

 

[warren]

I think the Alfred's heirs lacked the interest in leather goods and sold that part of the brand to the Swiss company for moneys, only moneys ... Lots of moneys. Money is great motivator.The Swiss owned Mont Blanc and other luxury brands. Most likely they understood marketing such better that the surviving Dunhills.

I'd almost bet that the remaining Dunhills are in the business simply to stay busy, akin the gentleman farmers. They possess a noted brand and can malke some pin money selling a well known brand of historical significance.

 

[mingc]

I think the Alfred's heirs lacked the interest in leather goods and sold that part of the brand to the Swiss company for moneys, only moneys ... Lots of moneys. Money is great motivator.The Swiss owned Mont Blanc and other luxury brands. Most likely they understood marketing such better that the surviving Dunhills.

I'd almost bet that the remaining Dunhills are in the business simply to stay busy, akin the gentleman farmers. They possess a noted brand and can malke some pin money selling a well known brand of historical significance.

The history is far, far, more complicated than that. Here's part 1 of 2 of a long 2005 post from alt.pipes.smokers by pipeman, who asked and got an answer from Howard Smith of Alfred Dunhill Manufacturing Limited (Who owns what with Dunhill - https://groups.google.com/g/alt.smokers.pipes/c/ZovPB4HkQj4/m/-yGr7qsLCQAJ):

When this whole regarding Dunhill tobacco blew up a week ago I decided
to do some research. It seams there are three Dunhills: the tobacco
business (btw Dunhill cigarettes in the U.S. are owned by Phillip
Morris - unless they've sold it); the pipe business; the stores and
watches and assorted 'luxury goods'. I made inquires to B.A.T. and the
pipe making enitity. I recieved a reply from them which I will post
here in its entirety. Before I do I would just like to make clear that
Dunhill tobacco was merged with B.A.T., a company, which by its
original charter was precluded from both the U.S. and U.K. by breakup
of the Duke trust. I'm not sure how that stands now but B.A.T. bought
Brown & Williamson, merged that with lane, and then merged that with
Reynolds. B.A.T. own 41% of Reynolds (and Lane), and the company that
"owns" Dunhill (it was a merger) owns 18% of B.A.T..
Dear Mr Lieberman,
Thank you for your enquiry that has been received at Alfred Dunhill
Manufacturing Limited.
I will try and explain a very complex situation to you as simply as
possible by using history. I hope this should clarify the situation.
You do also have to know the history of all those companies involved
like Carreras, Rothmans and Richemont to see how they are interlinked.
In the following details:
Alfred Dunhill refers to the person
ADL (Alfred Dunhill Limited) refers to the Company
AHD is Alfred Henry Dunhill (Alfred Dunhill's son)
MD is Mary Dunhill (Alfred Dunhill's daughter)
Starting in 1893 Alfred Dunhill takes over the running of his fathers'
business supplying items for horses - blankets leather harnessses etc.
With the introduction of the motor car, of which Alfred owned one of
the first ones brought into England, expands his business into Dunhill
Motorities to supply all the accessories for the car, the driver and
passengers.
1904 - Receives patent for windshield pipe.
1905 - Alfred Dunhill's Patent Development Company established
1907 - Alfred Dunhill opens a tobacconist shop at 31a Duke Street St
James's
1910 - 28 Duke Street acquired and pipe making commences
1912 - ADL became Alfred Dunhill (1912) Limited - AHD joins business
and pipe factory moves to Mason's Yard.
1913 - Alfred Dunhill(1912) Limited became Dunhill's Limited
1916 - Notting Hill Gate premises acquired for office and pipe making
1921 - Alfred Dunhill of London Inc formed in New York
1922 - Parker Pipe Company Limited formed - subsiduary of ADL
1923 - ADL formed
1929 - AD retires and son AHD succeeds as chairman
1930 - Leather factory opens in Notting Hill Gate
1936 - Large shareholding in Hardcastle Pipes Ltd purchased with a
factory in Walthamstow
1943 - Mary Dunhill appointed Director of ADL
1948 - Richard Dunhill joins ADL
1959 - Alfred Dunhill dies
1961 - AHD retires and Mary Dunhill succeeds as chairman - Richard
Dunhill becomes director
Alfred Dunhill Tobacco Ltd founded and new fatory acquired in Plaistow
East London. In 1966 named changed to Dunhill Tobacco Limited

Incidental Tobacco History relavent to the story:
The Dunhill London cigarette was made for Dunhill's by George Dobie &
Son of Paisly, Yorkshire. The same brand was made by C E McConnel Ltd
which traded at first as Gill Brothers from 1940 onwards. London
cigarette was superseded by the Dunhill White Spot cigarette in 1952,
manufactured by Carreras Limited. In 1965 the Dunhill Virginia Filter
was launched and in 1966 Dunhill International. In 1953 John Sinclair
had acquired a controlling interest in Murray,Son & Co (Belfast)

1965 (March) AHD and MD transfer 50% of ADL to John Sinclair Limited a
subsidiary of Carreras Limited and Robert C Wickenden, as nominees of
Carreras.(Carreras Ltd, dates back to 1788, had become associated with
Rothmans in 1958) The share transfer follows great concerns over future
death duties and the effect on the family control of the business.
1965 (July) Robert Wickenden purchases a further 500 shares,as nominee
for Carreras bringing them control.

1967 Parker Pipes and Hardcastle merged
1972 Carreras renamed Rothmans International
1975 Mary Dunhill retires and Richard Dunhill her nephew succeeds
1976 ADL acquires Lane Limited (USA). Lane had bought Charatan Pipes in
1962 and in 1965, through the Charatan Company, bought Ben Wade.
1977 Dunhill Pipes Limited formed - Montblanc pen company acquired by
ADL
1981 Tobacco manufacture moved from London to Murrays Belfast (Dunhill
Tobacco Ltd sold)
1982 Dunhill Holdings PLC acquired ADL under scheme of arrangement.
Rothmans International controlled new holding company. Pipe manufacture
transfers to Walthamstow
1985 Chloe group (ladies fashion) bought by Dunhill Holdings PLC. as
well as Dunhill Tailored Clothes Inc New York purchased.
1987 Lane Limited was sold to Rothmans International
1988 Mary Dunhill dies
1989 Richard Dunhill appointed as Chairman
1991 Hackett menswear acquired
1992 Karl Lagerfeld (fashion designer) business purchased
1993 Dunhill Holdings PLC name changed to Vendome under the following
reorganisation
Rothmans International Group was formed in october 1993 through
reorganisation of the tobacco and luxury goods businesses of Richmont,
Rothmans and Dunhill into two new listed groups, Rothmans International
and Vendome. Rothmans International comprises all of Rothmans tobacco
businesses and certain tobacco trade marks previously owned by Dunhill
and Richmont. International cigarette brands owned and controlled by
the group include Rothmans, Peter Stuyvesant, Dunhill, Cravan 'A' and
Golden American. Under its constitution Rothmans International has a
dual holding company stucture, in which the shareholders hold units
comprising twinned shares in Rothmans International Plc, a British
company, and Rothmans International NV a Dutch company. Rothmans
International Plc owns the UK-based businesses and Rothmans
International NV owns the non-UK based businesses. The composition of
the boards of both companies is identical. Following the
reorganisation, Rothmans Tobacco (Holdings) SA, an indirectly wholly
owned Richmont subsidiary, owns 61% of the Rothmans International
units, with the balance being held by former public shareholders of
Rothmans and Dunhill.

1998 Richemont byout of Vendome minority shareholders

 

[mingc]

Part 2 of 2:

RICHEMONT HISTORY:


1988 - Formation of Richemont.

1989 - Richemont acquires Philip Morris' 30 per cent interest in
Rothmans International.

1993 - Separation of Richemont's tobacco and luxury goods operations
into Rothmans International BV/PLC and Vendôme Luxury Group SA/PLC
respectively.

1995 - Buyout of Rothmans International minority shareholders.
- Formation of NetHold pay television group.

1996 - Merger of Richemont's tobacco interests with those of Rembrandt
Group Limited.
- Acquisition of watchmakers Vacheron Constantin by Vendôme Luxury
Group.

1997 - Merger of NetHold with Canal+ of France, Richemont acquires 15
per cent of Canal+.
- Acquisition of watchmaker Officine Panerai and leather goods brand
Lancel by Vendôme Luxury Group.

1998 - Buyout of Vendôme Luxury Group minority shareholders, Richemont
owns 100 per cent of luxury goods interests.

1999 - Merger of Rothmans International with British American Tobacco -
Richemont holds 23.3 per cent effective interest in the enlarged
British American Tobacco.
- Acquisition of a controlling 60 per cent interest in Van Cleef &
Arpels, one of the world's most renowned jewellery houses.
- Richemont disposes of its 15 per cent interest in Canal + in
exchange for a 2.9 per cent interest in Vivendi.

2000 - Reduction in the Group's effective interest in British American
Tobacco to 21 per cent through partial disposal of holding of
preference shares.
- Disposal of Vivendi interest, represents exit from pay-television
and electronic media investments.
- Acquisition of Jaeger-LeCoultre, IWC and A. Lange & Söhne.

2001 - Richemont acquires a further 20 per cent interest in Van Cleef &
Arpels.
- In November 2001, Richemont units were split in the ratio of 100 to
1.

2003 - Richemont acquires the remaining 20 per cent interest in Van
Cleef & Arpels that it did not previously own, bringing that company
into full ownership by the Group.
- Richemont acquires the final 10 per cent of A. Lange & Söhne that
was previously held by members of the Lange family.

2004 - In June 2004, holders of warrants over British American Tobacco
(BAT) preference shares exercise their rights and have preference
shares converted into new ordinary shares in BAT. Richemont's effective
interest in BAT reduced to 18.6 per cent in June 2004.

2005 - Richemont, announces in March 2005 that it has marginally
reduced its interest in British American Tobacco p.l.c. ('BAT') to
18.2 percent through the indirect sale of 12,854,457 BAT shares to its
joint venture partner, Remgro Limited ('Remgro').
- Richemont announces that it has entered into an agreement with
Torreal S.C.R., S.A., a leading Spanish investment company, for the
sale of its wholly-owned subsidiary, Hackett Limited.



History of Anton Rupert

Anton Edward Rupert (4 October 1916 - ) is an Afrikaner-South African
billionaire entrepreneur, businessman and conservationist. He was born
in the small town of Graaff-Reinet and grew up in Stellenbosch, where
the Rupert Group still has its headquarters.After dropping out of
medical school due to a lack of funds, Rupert earned a chemistry degree
at the University of Pretoria.

>From humble beginnings as a chemistry lecturer, manufacturing
cigarettes in his garage, Dr. Rupert built the tobacco and industrial
conglomerate Rembrandt and oversaw its transition to the industrial and
luxury branded goods sectors, with Rembrandt splitting into Remgro (an
investment company with financial, mining and industrial interests) and
Richemont (a Swiss based luxury goods group). Currently, the Rupert
business empire encompasses hundreds of companies located in 35
countries on six continents, with combined yearly net sales in the
region of USD 10 billion.

Dr Rupert has also been deeply involved in environmental conservation
and his companies have been prominent in funding the fine arts; since
1964 foundations established by Rembrandt have used a part of the
group's profits for the promotion of education, art, music and the
preservation of historical buildings.He has also played an important
role in the South African Small Business Development Corporation
(SBDC), a non-profit company whose loans to small and medium-sized
businesses have created nearly half a million jobs since 1981.

Although he was openly critical of the apartheid system during that
era, both at home and abroad, he avoided confrontations that may have
threatened his business interest

Dr. Rupert established the tobacco company "Voorbrand" in the
1940's. He soon renamed it Rembrandt Ltd., whose overseas tobacco
interests were consolidated into Rothmans in 1972.

In 1988, the Rembrandt group founded the Swiss luxury goods company,
Richemont, which in turn acquired Rembrandt's shares in Rothmans.
Richemont also owns such luxury brands as Cartier (jewellery); Alfred
Dunhill, Sulka and Hackett (designer clothing); Seeger (leather bags);
Piaget, Baume & Mercier and Vacheron Constantin (Swiss watches) and
Montblanc (pens).

In 1995 Rembrandt and Richemont consolidated their respective tobacco
interests into Rothmans International, which was at the time the
world's fourth largest cigarette manufacturer.

In 1999 Rothmans International merged with British American Tobacco
(BAT), the world's second largest cigarette producer. Remgro now holds
a 10% and Richemont an 18.6% share in BAT.Dr Rupert's eldest son,
Johann Rupert, is now the CEO of Richemont and chairman of Remgro.



1995 - Alfred Dunhill Pipes Limited became shortened to Dunhill Pipes
Limited. Two years ago it was changed to Alfred Dunhill Manufacturing
Limited - with an additional leather making factory added.

The White Spot pipes are still made here in the Factory in East London
and today even though we have our own legal company entity we are part
of Alfred Dunhill Limited. All tobacco products - that is cigarettes,
cigars and pipe tobaccos under the Dunhill brand name are owned and
manufactured by British American Tobacco and not Alfred Dunhill Limited
or Alfred Dunhill Manufacturing Limited.

ADML is the UK authorised distributor for Butz Choquin and Stanwell
Pipes

It is a well known fact that most commercial pipe makers make deals
amongst themselves to trade excess quantities of bowl stock (of the
correct grade) otherwise they would each be sitting on 'Bowl Mountains'
and would quickly go out of business.

The Castleford brand is owned by Music City Marketing (Nashville) who
are also the authorised distributor in the USA for Alfred Dunhill Pipes
and Smokers' Accessory Ranges. Currently Music City have their
Castleford pipes made at our bowl facility in Chatham where we also
make Charatan pipes.They can off course decide to have them made any
where else in the world they desire. The situation is reminiscent of
1922 when Parker Pipes was formed to use all the bowls not suitable for
Dunhill.

As explained at the beginning the matter is a very complex one with
many of the businesses merging or having historical connections. I do
hope that the above does go some way top illustrate where we are today.

Yours sincerely

Howard S Smith

Alfred Dunhill Manufacturing Limited

KL
tb#2 in a london made

 

[mingc]

It looks like Carreras, later renamed Rothmans International, acquired majority control of Alfred Dunhill Limited, as early as 1965. What is unknown is whether the Dunhill family members had any ownership interest in Carreras though it is clear that at least Mary and Richard Dunhill continued to have active roles in Alfred Dunhill Limited after 1965.

Richard Dunhill died in 2016 (there are posts in this forum). I've no idea if any surviving Dunhills have any active role in any of the companies today.

 

[dunnyboy]

Fascinating history. Not sure it answers the question of whether—on average—recent "White Spot" pipes are of equal quality to the older Dunhills. Perhaps some or even most are but in my very limited experience (which should be taken with a grain of salt) they are not. From a British shop, I acquired a county apple that had a very light, almost soft stummel that scorched after the slightest contact with an Old Boy flame. I also acquired a White Spot Chestnut billiard that obscured the grain far more than my old bruyeres did and just struck me as lacking in authenticity. These are wholly subjective reactions of course, but as a longtime Dunhill fan (though not an expert) I decided to stick with my Dunnys from the late 70s and early 80s and sell the White Spots.

I've since sold all my Dunhills except for a shell bent billiard from 1966 that was one of my first Dunhills. It smokes everything well and has a vulcanite stem so beat up that it has no resale value.

 

[Terry Lennox]

The Rupert family of South Africa controls Dunhill via Richemont which is a publicly traded luxury goods holding company. The family also has an interest (18%?) in British American Tobacco that gives them effective control. A few years ago BAT sold the recipes for the Dunhill tobacco range to Scandinavian Tobacco Group which produces many of them now under the Peterson name. STG had been producing them for many years since their move from Murray's so they are unchanged under the Peterson name.

 

[Chasing Embers]

the pipes are made in the same exact factory with many long standing carvers

Just like the former Dunhill now Peterson blends, but you no longer see the tobacco listed and sold under the Dunhill name like the pipes are.