Any Mason's in the House?
- Thread starter werebear
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Certain orders within the Catholic Church are at odds with each other concerning critical thought. The Jesuit order in particular champions rational thought and discipline. In fact, I'm looking forward to seeing a Jesuit astronomer and author from the Vatican observatory come to the Cranbrook Institute of Science this November for a presentation. Cranbrook is quite famous as an educational institution (I was honored to act as a student teaching intern at Cranbrook instead of the usual student-teacher requirement other would-be teachers have to undergo). Just thought I'd mention that so others would know there are rational Catholics.
I'm sure that regardless of the twists and turnings of the conversation here we all share werebear's joy and sense of accomplishment. Thank you, werebear, for sharing with us. I truly believe that the only way that anyone grows in wisdom is by sharing their views with another and then listening respectfully to the other's response. Only in the ongoing dialog do we ever grow in wisdom. To only listen to those who agree with you, or to disrespect those who disagree with you is a sure way to reject the possibility of growing in wisdom.
Again werebear, we rejoice with you and I thank you for starting, although unintentionally, a most interesting conversation.
Again werebear, we rejoice with you and I thank you for starting, although unintentionally, a most interesting conversation.
There was mention of "secret society". Masons are not a secret society; perhaps they were a long time ago, but no longer. Our various bodies are publicly known, as are our meeting places and times, and members make no secret of their membership. Our meetings and degree ceremonies are private, closed to outsiders, but that is not unusual in today's world. Most corporations hold closed board meetings, governmental meetings are seemingly more closed than open, as are many school boards, church boards, etc. I believe even the Catholic Church holds private meetings, particularly at the Vatican.
Secret societies keep their meeting places, times, and memberships, well, secret.
Just thought I'd point that out to help understanding.
Secret societies keep their meeting places, times, and memberships, well, secret.
Just thought I'd point that out to help understanding.
Well Holy Moly Mr Crowley, got the fire stirred up over that one. Never thought to look up a papal ban on masonry on wiki....considering my priest had recently told me that it had all been brushed under the table. Hmmmmmmm wonder if he's a Mason! No, I know he isn't. Sad the case seems to be, considering there is a certain order in Freemasonry that requires you to be Christian. Like the other gentleman have said, we are here to talk about pipes and this topic could get sticky. My apologies.
Actually you put it under "General Pipe Smoking Discussion". "General Discussion" is further down the list...Quick, say something pipe-ish! :mrgreen:
It doesn't matter, we're all pretty clearly interested in the discussion, and we all pretty much wish you well, werebear.
It doesn't matter, we're all pretty clearly interested in the discussion, and we all pretty much wish you well, werebear.
Perdurabal, I think it's great we can also tell our friends here of our personal achievements. Werebear should be applauded for his entry into Freemasonry, as I do. And we've been very civilized in discussing the issues involved, which just goes to show how well-thought we pipe smokers are. Again, my congratulations to Werebear.
Quite an interesting thread this turned into. werebear congratulations on your interest and acceptance into the fraternity. I wish you a wonderful experience as you travel through the degrees. The different nights that I received the degrees were truly unique experiences that I will not forget. Congratulations.
I heard there is a pipe tobacco named Old Lodge elbert! As for the rest of you, thank you again for your well wishes. I am so excited! Tomorrow is the beginning of my journey and there is going to be a potluck so I am having my wife make her Lasagna of Awesomeness. Seriously though you should all feel sheltered for not having had any! :nana:
First off, congratulations, werebear, on your acceptance.
I would normally avoid posting on religious topics but there have been inaccurate postings in this thread and some can easily be taken as bigoted slurs that need to be addressed.
I'll start by acknowledging that there has existed for some time some confusion and mis-information about whether Catholics can become Masons. But the fact that Masons welcome Catholics is completely irrelevant to whether is is canonically legal for a Catholic to become a Mason.
But to address a specific spurious claim made here in this thread, anyone who says that Catholicism repudiates rational thinking is ignorant of history and the Church's teaching. And it is insulting to Catholics and non-Catholic critical thinkers alike. The Church gave us Copernicus and Pasteur and Aquinas and Chesterton, to name a few of thousands, and created the concepts and established the first universities (hospitals as well).
I would like to think that Catholics today are actually on the forefront in fearless critical thinking about society, culture, history and natural law. (George Will and Pat Buchanan and Peggy Noonan come to mind. But that probably tells you as much about my politics as anything else).
I have never met a Catholic cleric who was a Mason and I doubt that they exist, at least in any numbers. If such persons do exist, they are by definition, unfaithful and dis-obedient to the Church and are ex-communicated ex-post facto, and thus no longer have priestly faculties.
Yes, many customs and requirements of Masons are no longer observed. But saying that a Catholic can't be a Free Mason because Mason's are free thinkers is patently absurd and did I say, bigoted, even if unintentional? Why not accept the Church's stated position rather than making up a fiction or repeating a malicious slur worthy of Jimmy Swaggert?
The Church's position is simple. Free Masonry is incompatible with Catholicism, just as is Islam or satanism or Buddhism. It doesn't mean that any of the group noted don't have some insight into reality.
It doesn't mean that Free Masons haven't contributed much to society or that there haven't been notable Mason's. I believe it has been claimed and is credible that most of the president of the U.S. were Masons - at least in our country's formative years.
What does the Church ACTUALLY say about Freemasonry? This from Catholic Answers:
What is the Catholic Church's official position on Freemasonry? Are Catholics free to become Freemasons?
Answer
Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Freemasonry teaches a naturalistic religion that espouses indifferentism, the position that a person can be equally pleasing to God while remaining in any religion.
Masonry is a parallel religion to Christianity. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states, "Freemasonry displays all the elements of religion, and as such it becomes a rival to the religion of the Gospel. It includes temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, worship, vestments, feast days, the promise of reward or punishment in the afterlife, a hierarchy, and initiation and burial rites."
Masonry is also a secret society. Its initiates subscribe to secret blood oaths that are contrary to Christian morals. The prospective Mason swears that if he ever reveals the secrets of Masonry - secrets which are trivial and already well-known - he wills to be subject to self-mutilation or to gruesome execution. (Most Masons, admittedly, never would dream of carrying out these punishments on themselves or on an errant member).
Historically, one of Masonry's primary objectives has been the destruction of the Catholic Church; this is especially true of Freemasonry as it has existed in certain European countries. In the United States, Freemasonry is often little more than a social club, but it still espouses a naturalistic religion that contradicts orthodox Christianity. (Those interested in joining a men's club should consider the Knights of Columbus instead.)
The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).
Because the revised code of canon law is not explicit on this point, some drew the mistaken conclusion that the Church's prohibition of Freemasonry had been dropped. As a result of this confusion, shortly before the 1983 code was promulgated, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a statement indicating that the penalty was still in force. This statement was dated November 26, 1983 and may be found in Origins 13/27 (Nov. 15, 1983), 450.
Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff
__________________________________________________________________
Saying you can be Catholic and Mason is like saying you can be Collie and a bulldog. You can mix them, but the result is impure to both breeds. You are not a good collie and you're not a good bulldog.
Summary: The fact that Free Masons accepts Catholics is irrelevant to the Churches position. What is relevant that the Catholic who joins the Masons still officially ex-communicate themselves.
I know this is far from posts about pipes and tobaccos. But as a former Catholic Benedictine Monk aspirant, and current Third Order Dominican, whose motto is "Veritas" e.g., "Truth", I felt that I had a responsibility to respond to some of the postings, whose writers, hopefully possessed no ill will.
Pax
Steve Graves, O.P.
I would normally avoid posting on religious topics but there have been inaccurate postings in this thread and some can easily be taken as bigoted slurs that need to be addressed.
I'll start by acknowledging that there has existed for some time some confusion and mis-information about whether Catholics can become Masons. But the fact that Masons welcome Catholics is completely irrelevant to whether is is canonically legal for a Catholic to become a Mason.
But to address a specific spurious claim made here in this thread, anyone who says that Catholicism repudiates rational thinking is ignorant of history and the Church's teaching. And it is insulting to Catholics and non-Catholic critical thinkers alike. The Church gave us Copernicus and Pasteur and Aquinas and Chesterton, to name a few of thousands, and created the concepts and established the first universities (hospitals as well).
I would like to think that Catholics today are actually on the forefront in fearless critical thinking about society, culture, history and natural law. (George Will and Pat Buchanan and Peggy Noonan come to mind. But that probably tells you as much about my politics as anything else).
I have never met a Catholic cleric who was a Mason and I doubt that they exist, at least in any numbers. If such persons do exist, they are by definition, unfaithful and dis-obedient to the Church and are ex-communicated ex-post facto, and thus no longer have priestly faculties.
Yes, many customs and requirements of Masons are no longer observed. But saying that a Catholic can't be a Free Mason because Mason's are free thinkers is patently absurd and did I say, bigoted, even if unintentional? Why not accept the Church's stated position rather than making up a fiction or repeating a malicious slur worthy of Jimmy Swaggert?
The Church's position is simple. Free Masonry is incompatible with Catholicism, just as is Islam or satanism or Buddhism. It doesn't mean that any of the group noted don't have some insight into reality.
It doesn't mean that Free Masons haven't contributed much to society or that there haven't been notable Mason's. I believe it has been claimed and is credible that most of the president of the U.S. were Masons - at least in our country's formative years.
What does the Church ACTUALLY say about Freemasonry? This from Catholic Answers:
What is the Catholic Church's official position on Freemasonry? Are Catholics free to become Freemasons?
Answer
Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Freemasonry teaches a naturalistic religion that espouses indifferentism, the position that a person can be equally pleasing to God while remaining in any religion.
Masonry is a parallel religion to Christianity. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states, "Freemasonry displays all the elements of religion, and as such it becomes a rival to the religion of the Gospel. It includes temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, worship, vestments, feast days, the promise of reward or punishment in the afterlife, a hierarchy, and initiation and burial rites."
Masonry is also a secret society. Its initiates subscribe to secret blood oaths that are contrary to Christian morals. The prospective Mason swears that if he ever reveals the secrets of Masonry - secrets which are trivial and already well-known - he wills to be subject to self-mutilation or to gruesome execution. (Most Masons, admittedly, never would dream of carrying out these punishments on themselves or on an errant member).
Historically, one of Masonry's primary objectives has been the destruction of the Catholic Church; this is especially true of Freemasonry as it has existed in certain European countries. In the United States, Freemasonry is often little more than a social club, but it still espouses a naturalistic religion that contradicts orthodox Christianity. (Those interested in joining a men's club should consider the Knights of Columbus instead.)
The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).
Because the revised code of canon law is not explicit on this point, some drew the mistaken conclusion that the Church's prohibition of Freemasonry had been dropped. As a result of this confusion, shortly before the 1983 code was promulgated, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a statement indicating that the penalty was still in force. This statement was dated November 26, 1983 and may be found in Origins 13/27 (Nov. 15, 1983), 450.
Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff
__________________________________________________________________
Saying you can be Catholic and Mason is like saying you can be Collie and a bulldog. You can mix them, but the result is impure to both breeds. You are not a good collie and you're not a good bulldog.
Summary: The fact that Free Masons accepts Catholics is irrelevant to the Churches position. What is relevant that the Catholic who joins the Masons still officially ex-communicate themselves.
I know this is far from posts about pipes and tobaccos. But as a former Catholic Benedictine Monk aspirant, and current Third Order Dominican, whose motto is "Veritas" e.g., "Truth", I felt that I had a responsibility to respond to some of the postings, whose writers, hopefully possessed no ill will.
Pax
Steve Graves, O.P.
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